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All debates involving IRL politics go here; tired of reading through irrelevant ICF posts.
Permalink
| May 14, 2011, 5:32 pm
Ok, so let's make something clear, both dems and reps both create large amounts of debt. Everyone is equally responsible of the debt in our country and everyone is guilty for being sell outs. If you don't want debt the only candidate would be Ron Paul, a libertarian.

Also all of these are because of oil, but everyone is guilty of wanting oil. Don't pull the only republicans want to go to war because our current regime is running into Libya for oil and there were dems in congress when the Iraq incident occurred.

Finally the democrats are as guilty for protecting CEOs as are republicans. Democrats take more bribes and give out more money in special interests than republicans do. Finally just look at GE, look how they just so happen to get no taxes.

In conclusion everyone is wasteful! And that's why we need more independent candidates. And food is going up because of the instability in the middle east which could be solved if we drilled at home. And just look at healthcare, democrats are the reason why the system is messed up and costs so much. If you say that medicare is necessary, sure it is, but a system where people who are capable of getting jobs yet decide to live off the system is corrupt. Also what really could limit the budget is fixing our prison system, maybe instead of having to run a bunch of cops around catching people. We should think proactively and educate people to not do crimes, and we should stiffen sentencing to prevent all of this. We could also possibly let poorer, more likely to be criminal kids to join the military so that they get a sense of discipline. Then on top of that, we could have more charter schools in crime likely areas as well.

Also affirmative action needs to be
prohibited like in England.

Obama has been as wasteful if not more wasteful than any other politician. If you try to sugar coat his print print print strategy you are deluded. As it HASN'T WORKED! The economy is double dipping and helicopter Ben is still calling for even more running of the presses.
Permalink
| May 14, 2011, 6:59 pm
 Group moderator 
-All politicians are crooks who do not care for the good of the people, only the good of their wallets.
-The time for affirmative action is over. It should have never begun. Slavery should still be instated, but I'll settle for segregation.
-America should go isolationist again. No one appreciates the world police job, get over it. Let's turtle up and take care of ourselves. How can we help others with people starving in our own streets?
-Develop alternative energies, drill while they're being perfected. Never rely on outsiders again.
-???
-Profit.
Permalink
| May 15, 2011, 1:40 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting henry wang
our current regime is running into Libya for oil

False. We're there for human rights. And we didn't start another pointless land like Iraq or Afghanistan.

Quoting Henry Wang
Dems were in Congress during Iraq


But not enough to derail Bush's war train.
Permalink
| May 15, 2011, 2:07 pm
Quoting Awesome-o-saurus The Not-So-Great
-All politicians are crooks who do not care for the good of the people, only the good of their wallets.
Thats patriotic England for you.

Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 5:32 pm
Quoting Thomas N
False. We're there for human rights. And we didn't start another pointless land like Iraq or Afghanistan.

Ok, then how come we haven't stepped in in Syria or all of the warring African states. It's obvious we are there for oil.

Also a majority of democrats were pro-war. In fact more democrats voted for the war than against it. Sure, only 1 Republican vetoed, but there were only 49 Republicans in the senate. So yeah, the Democrats had the majority, and could have surely filibustered their way to getting RES 114 to not pass. If you think I'm denying Republicans' involvement in getting us in the war, I'm not. I just believe that everyone is at fault, and just blaming Bush is really wrong.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 5:39 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting henry wang
Ok, then how come we haven't stepped in in Syria or all of the warring African states. It's obvious we are there for oil.

So the fact that we're barely doing anything over there, besides some combat flights and some coordination doesn't register with you?

Nor the fact that we're not actually getting any oil from Libya?

If we were going there for oil, which we aren't, we'd probably be giving a bigger effort, and we'd probably have gotten oil by now. And neither is happening.

Since no one can confirm the accusation that oil is the objective, the entire accusation looks like a smear tactic. And smear tactics are childish.


That being said, I really think people in government should step up the push for social equality not just in Libya, but at home too.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 5:58 pm
Quoting Tom Neumo

How much oil were we getting from Iraq prior to the war? Well the answer is not as much as before. Meaning that saying the Iraq War was for oil doesn't make sense, so I think saying we are there for oil are complete lies. And most likely our allies are doing it for oil or at least are trying to protect their ties to oil.

Exactly how is America not socially just? Sure there are small incidents, but nothing is perfect.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 6:07 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting henry wang
How much oil were we getting from Iraq prior to the war? Well the answer is not as much as before. Meaning that saying the Iraq War was for oil doesn't make sense, so I think saying we are there for oil are complete lies. And most likely our allies are doing it for oil or at least are trying to protect their ties to oil.

Exactly how is America not socially just? Sure there are small incidents, but nothing is perfect.

I'm thinking more like Women are still held in lower regard to men. If you remember ERA, you'd know what I'm talking about. The White, Straight, Christian, Male is still held in highest regard by our society, and I think that's wrong.

Other things, such as cultural persecution of h0m0s3xuals and Muslims (although this persecution is the fault of citizens and not the government, the government still needs to crack down on it), and near-constant racial violence come to mind.


And the Iraq war doesn't have a reason, nor justification. It just shouldn't have happened.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 6:22 pm
Quoting Tom Neumo

So Saddam's regime is much better than Gaddaffi's.

Also women are held to an equal regard, they hold very prominent positions in society, and contribute as much if not more than men. I laugh when you put cultural persecution of h0m0s3xuals and Muslims together in a sentence. I hope you realize that it is against Islamic religion to have h0m0s3xuals. Another thing is that Muslims are treated fairly, and are allowed to practice freely as long as they don't hurt others. Finally you cannot change society, the people in society can think and believe what ever they want. There is no way for the government to even attempt to make decisions for the people.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 6:40 pm
 Group moderator 
We need to bring back the days when the White Straight Male Landowner was the top of the top, and he oppressed everyone else. Then we can end this insane arguing.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 6:45 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting henry wang
So Saddam's regime is much better than Gaddaffi's.

Also women are held to an equal regard, they hold very prominent positions in society, and contribute as much if not more than men. I laugh when you put cultural persecution of h0m0s3xuals and Muslims together in a sentence. I hope you realize that it is against Islamic religion to have h0m0s3xuals. Another thing is that Muslims are treated fairly, and are allowed to practice freely as long as they don't hurt others. Finally you cannot change society, the people in society can think and believe what ever they want. There is no way for the government to even attempt to make decisions for the people.

And get paid 70 cents for each dollar a man earns in a similar job, a job that she would have to have fought to get because employers (and people in general) hold men in higher regard.

The point is that h0m0s3xuals and Muslims are both hated by a largely ignorant society. There is no social equality for either of them, regardless of what they think of each other.

Of course people in society can think and feel the way they want, but taking actions (actions being different than thoughts of words) against one particular group is wholly wrong.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 6:57 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting Awesome-o-saurus The Not-So-Great
We need to bring back the days when the White Straight Male Landowner was the top of the top, and he oppressed everyone else. Then we can end this insane arguing.

I can't tell if you're joking or if you're being serious...
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 6:58 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting Tom Neumo
I can't tell if you're joking or if you're being serious...


http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/174/trollface.png
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 7:09 pm
Quoting Tom Neumo

The most powerful person in America was almost a woman, I don't know about you, but that says a lot about accepting in my book. Also women have been integrated into society, and do the same jobs, and receive about equal pay. Sure, women are paid a bit less, but one can also argue colleges pick women and minorities over others. There is no perfect society, these business are not part of the government, they are private organizations. They are completely allowed to do what ever they want, and if you have a problem with that, then don't buy their products.

The point I was making was that if Muslims were allowed to do everything that they wanted and not have anyone pick morals, than hom0s3xuals would get murdered every day. So society's judgments on character and how one should act ethically is important. If you feel that they should be able to do everything exactly to their religion, than everyone that isn't a Muslim wouldn't exist. I'm not saying that there aren't good Muslims, but those are the Muslims that don't practice their religion to the letter. They can also be considered to not be Islamic because they have split from their origin so much.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 7:26 pm
Quoting Tom Neumo

So, do you have any proof?

Because I've come across race relations in my homeland; mainly, it's the maori complaining about being oppressed about forty years ago, having their land stolen off them about two hundred years ago (which they stole off the original owners long before that), moaning about the unfairness of the Waitangi Treaty, etcetera. There's just about never any truth behind it, either.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 7:28 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting henry wang
The most powerful person in America was almost a woman, I don't know about you, but that says a lot about accepting in my book. Also women have been integrated into society, and do the same jobs, and receive about equal pay. Sure, women are paid a bit less, but one can also argue colleges pick women and minorities over others. There is no perfect society, these business are not part of the government, they are private organizations. They are completely allowed to do what ever they want, and if you have a problem with that, then don't buy their products.

The point I was making was that if Muslims were allowed to do everything that they wanted and not have anyone pick morals, than hom0s3xuals would get murdered every day. So society's judgments on character and how one should act ethically is important. If you feel that they should be able to do everything exactly to their religion, than everyone that isn't a Muslim wouldn't exist. I'm not saying that there aren't good Muslims, but those are the Muslims that don't practice their religion to the letter. They can also be considered to not be Islamic because they have split from their origin so much.

But women are still not equal, they have been accepted sure, but they are in no way considered equal towards men. And discriminatory business practices are still wrong.

And...
Another Muslim misconception. You do realize that the Koran does not abdicate murder, don't you? According to Muslim law, any man who kills another out of spite is condemned and often killed himself for his foul act. Most Muslims are actually very tolerant, the problem with Americans is that they've only been exposed to the intolerant variety of Muslims, and then they just assume that most Muslims are intolerant,. when in fact, the majority are not intolerant. It is not a part of their religious practices to kill people, so for you to insinuate that it is is wrong.

It is not part of Islam to eliminate all non-Muslims, and the radicals who try to eliminate all non-Muslims are actually the ones who have split from their religion. Not the other way around. If American society has such an incorrect misconception about Islam, then it makes sense why so many Americans fear it, because they don't bother to understand it past their own misbeliefs.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 7:43 pm
Quoting Tom Neumo

The koran still speaks out against Hom0s3xuality, and under your interpretations of fairness, that is not fair and is unjust. I'm not saying Muslims all want to kill everyone, I'm just saying interpretation of the koran causes that. I feel that society needs to put down a line on morality and ethics, and it should be completely fair to judge those who cross it.

On women, doesn't the koran believe that women should not be treated correctly and fairly? I'm finding it a bit ironic that one of the things that your saying should be allowed to practice without judgment on their morals believes in unfair treatment of the other two.

On another note, there is equal pay, it's illegal to pay men and women that do the same task unequally. Now if your arguing about the census study. Here's the thing, the numbers are evening out. So eventually time will solve the problem. The trend of non-equal pay only exist in older women, and slowly as they retire, the average will eventually equal out. As we advance each generation by each, the average will equalize, and for now outliers are the reason why there exists a 75 cents on the dollar.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 7:58 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting henry wang
The koran still speaks out against Hom0s3xuality, and under your interpretations of fairness, that is not fair and is unjust. I'm not saying Muslims all want to kill everyone, I'm just saying interpretation of the koran causes that. I feel that society needs to put down a line on morality and ethics, and it should be completely fair to judge those who cross it.

On women, doesn't the koran believe that women should not be treated correctly and fairly? I'm finding it a bit ironic that one of the things that your saying should be allowed to practice without judgment on their morals believes in unfair treatment of the other two.

On another note, there is equal pay, it's illegal to pay men and women that do the same task unequally. Now if your arguing about the census study. Here's the thing, the numbers are evening out. So eventually time will solve the problem. The trend of non-equal pay only exist in older women, and slowly as they retire, the average will eventually equal out. As we advance each generation by each, the average will equalize, and for now outliers are the reason why there exists a 75 cents on the dollar.

But everyone should still be given equality. What you still don't seem to understand is that every single person in the United states should have complete equality, whereas right now, the only right currently given to women (specifically on an equal basis with men) by our Constitution is the right to vote.

So A Muslim man has the freedom to believe that women are not equal to him, and that H0m0s3xuality is wrong, there are plenty of Christian men who believe the same things. They should all have the freedom to believe what they want to believe.

In the same way, h0m0s3xuals and women should have the same rights as those men. The thing is, what I believe you're trying to tell me is that if Muslims were allowed to live the way they want to live (beyond murder, which actually isn't something that most Muslims believe in anyway), that that would jeopardize the rights of women and h0m0s3xuals. You say I'm being hypocritical because of this, but in reality, it wouldn't. In reality, if everyone had equal rights, then h0m0s3xuals and women could act an behave however they wanted (beyond crime), and the Muslim man, despite his beliefs, would not be able to affect how other people act.

That is true social equality. Every member of society, men, women, Christians, Muslims, straights and h0m0s3xuals, get to choose how to live their life (of course, limiting things such as basic crime, like murder and theft...), and because each one person is free to live their life the way they want, no other person can affect how that one person chooses to live his life. S Muslim, or Christian, man can believe that women don't deserve equality, but he can't affect the equality of women because he doesn't get to choose the course of other people's lives. That same man could also not control the course of the life of a h0m0s3xual, so hat h0m0s3xual gets to live the way he wants too.

It is my belief that it is the job of the government to ensure that every citizen is allowed to live how they want, so long as no citizen (or corporation, or whatever), is allowed to interfere with any one citizen's right to live how they want. The government protects the right to life choice of every citizen by making sure than no other force interferes with that right to life choice.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 8:24 pm
Quoting Tom Neumo

I'm not arguing with you because we are just arguing to reach the same thing. We believe the same things, that everyone should be equal, and be equal to belief. Everyone is entitled to be equal in belief and how they live their lives. But you confused me because I thought you meant anyone could practice whatever they wanted. The only thing we differ in is that I believe that the government should have 0 say in society and its decisions. It is my belief that society will iron out its own problems, and government intereference will just make everything messy.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 8:39 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting henry wang
I'm not arguing with you because we are just arguing to reach the same thing. We believe the same things, that everyone should be equal, and be equal to belief. Everyone is entitled to be equal in belief and how they live their lives. But you confused me because I thought you meant anyone could practice whatever they wanted. The only thing we differ in is that I believe that the government should have 0 say in society and its decisions. It is my belief that society will iron out its own problems, and government intereference will just make everything messy.

I think I realized this. I'm a very Liberal Libertarian, in that I believe everyone should have the right to choose to live their life, but the way I see it, forces like other people, society, corporations, and certain groups and organizations threaten the rights of the people to choose for themselves. I think that it is then the purpose of government to prevent those rights from being encroached upon by such other forces.

I can see that difference between us, and I guess I can respect it.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 8:46 pm
Quoting Tom Neumo

I can respect your beliefs as well.
Permalink
| June 1, 2011, 8:57 pm
 Group moderator 
Quoting Matt Hacker

Or if Conservatives weren't so afraid of stem cell research...

It's not about stem cells, it's about WHICH type of stem cells. It has been found that embryonic stem cells can, in fact, cause cancer because of their unpredictable nature. Adult stem cells are much better because they have been 'trained' by the body, not some juvenile force of nature waiting to be released. The only reason people are so adamant about embryonic sells is because it puts a happy face on abortion.

Like blood, adults would be perfectly willing to donate stem cells to those in need. There is absolutely no reason to harvest them from innocents who have no say.
Permalink
| June 8, 2011, 11:38 pm
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