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Govertment Shutdown
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(created with permission from Michael K.)

So, Yesterday or today, what ever your time zone is... The U.S Government Shutdown because of the fight over Obama Care. Putting millions out of pay. How do you take this... So, debate.
Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 9:44 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting TRON 117
Putting millions out of pay. How do you take this... So, debate.

I don't know about that, they will all get back pay, and they already have lavish pay and benefits to begin with.

This is Obama and Harry Reid's fault. Although the Republicans got the ball rolling, and it'll be hard for them to win this fight politically, it was Obama and Reid who repeatedly said they would not negotiate at all.
The house at first said they'd defund Obamacare, that wasn't going to happen, so then they offered to delay it, and get rid of the medical device tax, which Reid, in a gaffe, said was st up id. Then the house said, OK, you can have Obamacare, but with none of these exemptions. If it's so great, why would anyone want to be exempted?
White House staffers are exempt, IRS employees got their exemptions, Congress and their staff are exempt, so is big business, and big labor will likely get their exemption soon.
Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 9:53 pm
I think its pathetic! we elect these people to stand for us in the Govt. but they let the power go to their head BEFORE they get elected! they fight over this stuff because they think that they are helping us, but they also think they are special so they don't like it if it causes inconvenience and that cause inconvenience for the rest of us!They worry more about their own salary then the people who got them there.

So at dinner today, my mom and dad were talking and she told me about something that happened today in Washington: every day, a tour brings veterans from all over the us to see the memorials and museums, but because of congress, everything was closed! the veterans stood at the front looking to see. Then finally, some good congressmen came and opened the place so they could go in.

and why does everybody hate Obama? all he is guilty of is trying to help us, and its hard because of all the pressure they put on him!

but thats how i feel.
and i'm just 12!(i cannot believe i know about all this stuff)
Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 9:56 pm
Quoting Michael K.
I don't know about that, they will all get back pay, and they already have lavish pay and benefits to begin with.

This is Obama and Harry Reid's fault. Although the Republicans got the ball rolling, and it'll be hard for them to win this fight politically, it was Obama and Reid who repeatedly said they would not negotiate at all.



It is not Obama's fault. i say the republicans are being to much of hypocrites: they say they are for the people, with the people, and talk about the people, but we all know that they only care about there pay check. like Ted Cruz
Texas senator. he spent 21 hours talking about Green egg and ham and putting down American veterans,if hes going to say stuff like that, he shouldn't be there! they say stuff so we can put them in there but they abuse the power. and when somebody is furloughed, their pay is stopped all together, not benefits or back.

(My first comment on this is a little late, i think its in moderation because i put MOM in it. so that one might be out of order)
Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 10:06 pm
I knew there would be a topic about this.
Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 10:07 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting TRON 117
It is not Obama's fault. i say the republicans are being to much of hypocrites: they say they are for the people, with the people, and talk about the people,

Don't care about the people you say? You'd be hard pressed to find even a left-leaning poll that shows a majority in favor of Obamacare. Support has been declining since it was passed, not improving like in most laws. I suppose all these things will help the people also.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/359861/100-unintended-consequences-obamacare-andrew-johnson
Quoting TRON 117
but we all know that they only care about there pay check. like Ted Cruz

If they all care so much about their pay, why are they demanding to give up their exemptions, and suffer like the rest of us?
Quoting TRON 117
Texas senator. he spent 21 hours talking about Green egg and ham

That's a filibuster, when you talk about random stuff for as long as you can, to stop bills from passing. (In this situation it wasn't exactly a filibuster, but he was doing the same thing for the same purpose, so think of it like one)
Quoting TRON 117
and putting down American veterans,if hes going to say stuff like that, he shouldn't be there! they say stuff so we can put them in there but they abuse the power.

He's doing what he was put in power to do. While campaigning, he wasn't kowtowing to rich donors, he went out talking to average people, listening to concerns, not charging massive admission fees, like most candidates do. Now only a freshman, he's a leader of the conservative movement. What did he say against veterans? Veterans are getting all their money, completely unaffected, since VA appropriations are passed a year in advance.
Quoting TRON 117
and when somebody is furloughed, their pay is stopped all together, not benefits or back.

You'd think so, but not if you work for the government. They are all getting back pay, look it up. People would be a lot madder about this if they weren't.

As a side note, this is a picture of Obamacare, along with the regulations.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/05/wonk0517.jpg

Nobody has read it, nobody knows what's in it. nancy Pelosi famously said "We have to pass this bill to find out what's in it."

Quoting TRON 117
Then finally, some good congressmen came and opened the place so they could go in.

Yeah, that guy was a Republican.
Quoting TRON 117
and why does everybody hate Obama? all he is guilty of is trying to help us, and its hard because of all the pressure they put on him!

Oh yes, he works so hard.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01619/white-house_1619486c.jpg
Nothing wrong with recreation, but he plays an unusual amount of Golf.
Plus his 24 vacations since he's been president
Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 10:32 pm
 Group admin 
98% of NASA employees are furloughed. I think that explains my rage.
Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 10:52 pm
Do you guys like Obama?
Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 10:54 pm
Quoting Bill Daniels.
Do you guys like Obama?

well, i do. because he has one of the hardest jobs on earth.
he has to make decisions that effects the whole u.s. and he tries to help us. obamacare was suppose to help people who couldn't get health care because they didn't get paid enough or are sick to death and drowning in medical bills.
He has the weight of the nation on his shoulders and people pressure him too much

and lets face it, we would be in deep trouble if Romney made it.


Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 11:32 pm
Quoting TRON 117
well, i do. because he has one of the hardest jobs on earth.
he has to make decisions that effects the whole u.s. and he tries to help us. obamacare was suppose to help people who couldn't get health care because they didn't get paid enough or are sick to death and drowning in medical bills.
He has the weight of the nation on his shoulders and people pressure him too much

and lets face it, we would be in deep trouble if Romney made it.


Okay do you like him for what his job is? Or the way he thinks?
Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 11:35 pm
Quoting Michael K.
Quoting TRON 117
but we all know that they only care about there pay check. like Ted Cruz

If they all care so much about their pay, why are they demanding to give up their exemptions, and suffer like the rest of us?>>>

tron 117:they are rich, we made em rich by voting. they are not suffering.
Quoting Michael K.
Quoting TRON 117
and putting down American veterans,if hes going to say stuff like that, he shouldn't be there! they say stuff so we can put them in there but they abuse the power.

He's doing what he was put in power to do. While campaigning, he wasn't kowtowing to rich donors, he went out talking to average people, listening to concerns, not charging massive admission fees, like most candidates do. Now only a freshman, he's a leader of the conservative movement. What did he say against veterans? Veterans are getting all their money, completely unaffected, since VA appropriations are passed a year in advance.

tron117:everybody does dat when running

Quoting TRON 117
and when somebody is furloughed, their pay is stopped all together, not benefits or back.

You'd think so, but not if you work for the government. They are all getting back pay, look it up. People would be a lot madder about this if they weren't.


tron 117:San Antonio is one of hardest hit cites, JBSA(joint base San antonio)has 4 bases and 23,000 workers losing income
http://www.kens5.com/home/Thousands-of-San-Antonio-government-employees-wait-to-go-back-to-work-226050781.html



Quoting Michael K.
Nobody has read it, nobody knows what's in it. nancy Pelosi famously said "We have to pass this bill to find out what's in it."

Quoting TRON 117
Then finally, some good congressmen came and opened the place so they could go in.

Yeah, that guy was a Republican.

tron 117:well i'm glad the rep's helped


Quoting TRON 117
and why does everybody hate Obama? all he is guilty of is trying to help us, and its hard because of all the pressure they put on him!

Quoting Michael K.
Oh yes, he works so hard.
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01619/white-house_1619486c.jpg
Nothing wrong with recreation, but he plays an unusual amount of Golf.
Plus his 24 vacations since he's been president


tron 117:those 24 vacations were 30 family, 70 percent nation, and he plays golf, so what! he has downtime on weekends to
(messed up on reposting
Permalink
| October 1, 2013, 11:50 pm
For europeans the actual happenings in the USA look very strange. We see a president who tries to give the poor people a health care. What in Germany works very well since 1883 leads in 2013 to a shutdown in the USA. Its incredible! My hint: put all those republicans and those teaparty-nazis in a rocket and shoot them to the moon.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 3:18 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
98% of NASA employees are furloughed. I think that explains my rage.

We've had this conversation before. Nobody will die if NASA employees take break, just like all the other non-essential services. For Mission Control, it will be business as usual.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 7:52 am
 Group admin 
Quoting TRON 117
and he tries to help us.

"Do or do not. There is no try."
Quoting TRON 117
obamacare was suppose to help people who couldn't get health care because they didn't get paid enough or are sick to death and drowning in medical bills.

Don't forget, America has the best Health Care in the WORLD. If you need care now, there is no three month waiting line.
Unlike in Canada and Britain, people the gov't doesn't think are "important" wait in line for months, since doctors are paid poorly in socialized medicine, there aren't enough to care for everyone.
In the old days, major medical insurance was affordable to everyone, people would pay for routine expenses out of pocket, but if they got cancer, or a serious disease, that's when insurance would step in. Since there's such a low chance of that, insurance was very cheap. Then the government added regulations that increased the cost of insurance, just enough to mess up the system. Then they used that as an excuse to "fix" the system.
Quoting TRON 117
and lets face it, we would be in deep trouble if Romney made it.

Yes, how troubling, imagine, a guy who's spent most of his life in business creating thousands of jobs, who knows what it takes to help unemployment, who knows what a burden gov't is on job creators.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:10 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Locutus 666
For europeans the actual happenings in the USA look very strange. We see a president who tries to give the poor people a health care. What in Germany works very well since 1883 leads in 2013 to a shutdown in the USA. Its incredible!

What you have is a single payer system. That is incredibly expensive, and we are already running trillion dollar deficits. (we can debate all day about how the quality of your care is)
Quoting Locutus 666
My hint: put all those republicans and those teaparty-nazis in a rocket and shoot them to the moon.

Sorry, NASA is shut down.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:14 am
Quoting Locutus 666
My hint: put all those republicans and those teaparty-nazis in a rocket and shoot them to the moon.
Eh, I think that's a a little inhumane.

Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 9:53 am
Quoting Michael K.
We've had this conversation before. Nobody will die if NASA employees take break, just like all the other non-essential services. For Mission Control, it will be business as usual.

But who's going to be looking out for aliens or a meteor?!?!?
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 10:16 am
Quoting Locutus 666
For europeans the actual happenings in the USA look very strange. We see a president who tries to give the poor people a health care. What in Germany works very well since 1883 leads in 2013 to a shutdown in the USA. Its incredible! My hint: put all those republicans and those teaparty-nazis in a rocket and shoot them to the moon.

'Poor' people already have healthcare in the US, and have had for decades. People who fly to Disney, own snowmobiles, pools, etc. qualify. What the democrats want to do is have the government run it for everybody. And have us pay more so they can subsidize people who choose not to buy it for themselves. It's a way to buy votes, and control 1/5 of the economy.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 10:20 am
Quoting Michael K.
What you have is a single payer system. That is incredibly expensive, and we are already running trillion dollar deficits. (we can debate all day about how the quality of your care is)

Every healthcare is better than none. I think the financial stuff is just a bad excuse. A nation that spends alone 25% of the worlds total defence budgets should be unable to soend the few pence for a healthcare?
Even Cuba has one!

Quoting Michael K.
Sorry, NASA is shut down.

Thats bad.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 10:36 am
You can't keep borrowing money forever.
Sooner or later the free ride ends.


Besides that, a government should not be employing 'millions' in the first place; the millions should be employing themselves to fill economic slots as they crop up, instead of arbitrarily assigned to do some thing and never removed from duty afterwards.



As for the flap about 'it's all the Republican Party's fault!', if a single Amerilander political party has the ability to derail the government train whenever they feel like it, why didn't the 'Democrats' do it back when they were moaning and whinging about Bush?



(Funny note about Obamacare: apparently important people like Senators and the like don't actually have to get it, but it's mandatory for all you peons. What's that tell you?
Plus: OBAMA-care? Not especially modest.
Quoting Locutus 666
For europeans the actual happenings in the USA look very strange. We see a president who tries to give the poor people a health care. What in Germany works very well since 1883 leads in 2013 to a shutdown in the USA. Its incredible! My hint: put all those republicans and those teaparty-nazis in a rocket and shoot them to the moon.

You know, if you did that, you'd be kind of obligated to let them keep it. Lead to a certain degree of trouble once there's fusion reactors and the Moon-Men have all the Helium-3.

Plus, 'tea-party nazis? How do you take "personal responsibility and small government" and reinterpret it to mean "huge government with total control over all elements of life"?

Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 11:55 am
the reason the blues wernt crying when bush was because he made enough problems, they didnt wanna make more for the usa
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 3:19 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting TRON 117
the reason the blues wernt crying when bush was because he made enough problems, they didnt wanna make more for the usa

Like you remember Bush. They complained plenty. If you don't believe me, I could link you a bunch of youtube videos, I don't have time now.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 4:28 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Locutus 666
I think the financial stuff is just a bad excuse.

I suppose doctors ought to work for free. They have hundreds of thousands of student loans to pay back, medical training is expensive, surely you know that.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 4:32 pm
 Group admin 
This sums it up.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVh_GkFIYAAkeoC.jpg
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 4:36 pm
Quoting Michael K.
This sums it up.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVh_GkFIYAAkeoC.jpg

Nice!
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 4:38 pm
Regardless of whether you agree with the actual bill, the Republican attempts to "delay it" are quite pointless. It will be implemented regardless, so I say just let it come instead of causing all this ruckus and putting people out of work. All that does is complicate things and make people mad. I say can give Obamacare a try, and if it works better than what we have now we can keep it. If it is as colossal a failure as the Republicans seem to expect, it can be repealed.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 5:35 pm
Anarchy! Ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 6:22 pm
 Group admin 
Look, if you ask me, this is what needs to be done:

"Social" programs need to be cut back. VERY far back.

Research into science, technology, medicine, etc should be INCREASED. Why? Because this research brings in revenue, and yes, we need it.

Mine the c*rap out of every little piece of land you can get. You can get oil, natural gas, minerals, etc and be able to actually pay off the debt. (I want renewable energy, but its not nearly as profitable right now).

Start up NASA (though that falls into research.....)

Presidents serve one 6 year term.

Education system in the US radically changed to better position students into a rapidly evolving world.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 7:00 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Look, if you ask me, this is what needs to be done:

"Social" programs need to be cut back. VERY far back.

Research into science, technology, medicine, etc should be INCREASED. Why? Because this research brings in revenue, and yes, we need it.

Mine the c*rap out of every little piece of land you can get. You can get oil, natural gas, minerals, etc and be able to actually pay off the debt. (I want renewable energy, but its not nearly as profitable right now).

Start up NASA (though that falls into research.....)

Presidents serve one 6 year term.

Education system in the US radically changed to better position students into a rapidly evolving world.

Some great ideas there, Chief! It really is about the government spending too much money, and being too involved in our lives. Safety nets are fine, but it shouldn't be a way of life. And there certainly shouldn't be more of 'them' than 'us'. It's unsustainable. The Europeans are seeing it unravel before their eyes. We're at a tipping point in the US. It's pretty scary.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 7:28 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
Some great ideas there, Chief! It really is about the government spending too much money, and being too involved in our lives. Safety nets are fine, but it shouldn't be a way of life. And there certainly shouldn't be more of 'them' than 'us'. It's unsustainable. The Europeans are seeing it unravel before their eyes. We're at a tipping point in the US. It's pretty scary.

Indeed it is. The only way I see the US debt be minimized is via another World War; honestly, I don't think that has a chance of happening. Unless China tries an invasion of Japan, or something else that is equally crazy, I can't see the US being brought out of its debt via a war effort.


But all that said, I have to say, even though the US education system is "failing" the numbers offered are far from accurate. Like, did you know that of the Chinese students that took the PISA test (like an international standardized test) nearly all were from high performing Chinese schools in Shanghai? Where as the US sent a group of random students from across the nation. The point is that China's education is still more advanced than the US, but not in a form in which they will completely crush us.

There are more points I want to make; right now, though, I am seriously considering a mini web series explaining them, via LEGO.....
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 7:44 pm
So what you're saying is that we're totally fraked. I agree, I don't see a way out of it. In the past, Kennedy, Reagan, this debt issue was solved by massive economic growth. With Clinton it was spending cuts and growth. I don't see much for growth potential at this point. Companies will come up with new stuff, but the growing population of dependents is simply too much. Government policy/welfare state is not only a drag on the economy, but is a drag on our overall IQ. It's demographics. Again, I don't see a way out.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 7:56 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
So what you're saying is that we're totally fraked. I agree, I don't see a way out of it. In the past, Kennedy, Reagan, this debt issue was solved by massive economic growth. With Clinton it was spending cuts and growth. I don't see much for growth potential at this point. Companies will come up with new stuff, but the growing population of dependents is simply too much. Government policy/welfare state is not only a drag on the economy, but is a drag on our overall IQ. It's demographics. Again, I don't see a way out.

No, not at all. Almost the opposite, actually.


Firstly, and rather interestingly, IQs now are higher no than back during our grandparents era. Now, really what I think is that while much of America is dependent on these "safety nets" we still have plenty of ways out.


The big rival is, no doubt, China. Let me help you relax a little about this "threat".

China is like turn-of-the-century US right now. Huge economic gain, but at the expense of freedom, safety, environment, and the workforce. But, what makes it even worse is that they are having a population crisis (see 4-2-1 Problem). The US, on the other hand, is an area in which creativity and freedom are HEAVILY abundant. The PISA test scores indicate that the American students are seriously lacking; and they are. But remember what they are lacking in: memorizing facts. Creativity is still very high.


Interestingly, also, the debt in the US is, well, overrated. It's actually not THAT bad. In comparison, China has debt, but it's much more complex. One key example: look up what was suppose to be the tallest building the world.


Overall, we the American people see the negative. But honestly, I think that we have the capability to get out of this. There are a few links and whatnot, but I'll hold back for right now....
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:06 pm
Okay, fine. But I still think we're breeding a generation of lazy numbnuts. We need a leader, someone to inspire, and to get the government off our backs.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:11 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
Okay, fine. But I still think we're breeding a generation of lazy numbnuts. We need a leader, someone to inspire, and to get the government off our backs.

Agreed. Hmmm. Personally, if I ever got into office first thing I'd do would become non-partisan. It'd be interesting to see Congress's reaction.....

Inspire you say? How about landing on Mars?
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:13 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Agreed. Hmmm. Personally, if I ever got into office first thing I'd do would become non-partisan. It'd be interesting to see Congress's reaction.....

Inspire you say? How about landing on Mars?

People can't even find their town on a map, let alone understand where Mars is. I think it's difficult to understand how ignorant a large part of the American population really is. Ever watch Jay Leno talk to people 'on the street'? Frightening.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:22 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
People can't even find their town on a map, let alone understand where Mars is. I think it's difficult to understand how ignorant a large part of the American population really is. Ever watch Jay Leno talk to people 'on the street'? Frightening.

I dunno really. I mean, I have encountered some SERIOUS st*updiity (how about a girl that was asked who Adolf Hitler was) but even so, landing on Mars, it just has a ring to it.

Encourage the American people to support a landing. When they see the size of the rocket lift off from Kennedy, we will see a serious spike.

I find it hard to believe that everyone can be that bad. I mean, (and I don't want to generalize here, but this is my observation) the ghettos are pretty bad, in literally everything, but most people seem to know what it means to land on Mars. You can probably also boost its recognition by having famous Youtubers and Viners and Instagrammers and Rappers talk about it. Its just injecting it into the American Society.

Personally, if I see the country at a point where it doesn't know what Mars is, I promise that I will get into politics and sort all this out (hand on heart).
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:28 pm
People are more interested in the celebrities of the moment, and what new stuff they're going to get from the government. Working isn't even on their radar.
Mars would be cool. But we would have to cut off the idol poor. They would have to start working and stop having kids. We don't have the money for both. Our efforts should be focused on advancing society, not trying to bring up the least common denominator. It just won't happen.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:39 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting El Barto !
People are more interested in the celebrities of the moment, and what new stuff they're going to get from the government. Working isn't even on their radar.
Mars would be cool. But we would have to cut off the idol poor. They would have to start working and stop having kids. We don't have the money for both. Our efforts should be focused on advancing society, not trying to bring up the least common denominator. It just won't happen.

Well, back when Apollo 11 was launched, I highly doubt that all Americans were super geniuses.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:43 pm
Yeah, but they were willing to work. And weren't mesmerized by their government issued smart phones. "OMG" Don't forget buying lobster and steak with their EBT cards. Why would they care?
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:47 pm
Quoting El Barto !
But we would have to cut off the idle poor. They would have to start working and stop having kids. We don't have the money for both. Our efforts should be focused on advancing society, not trying to bring up the least common denominator.

That's the million dollar answer, isn't it? I totally agree, both North America and Europe suffer due to a lack of work ethic. People have been brought up in a world where they are told that they are special and unique, and inevitably most of them can't find a job which suits their perceptions of themselves. Hence, they decide to live off the government. (And no, this isn't just ranting, my mother often works with these people and most of them could get a job if they chose to take what was offered.) Also, due to our increased reliance on social networks and technology, we find we have less and less time. Hence, we work less.
We no longer have a sense of pride nor duty in our work, and the economy pays for it.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:55 pm
Quoting El Barto !
Yeah, but they were willing to work. And weren't mesmerized by their government issued smart phones. "OMG" Don't forget buying lobster and steak with their EBT cards. Why would they care?

Ah, you ninja'd me with a synopsis of the paragraph I was writing. ;)
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 8:56 pm
Of course there are poor people in this country, but what qualifies theses days is ridiculous. I see people all the time, they've got newer cars, all the toys, dirt bikes, snow mobiles, whatever, they go to Florida, they've got cable or dish, smartphones, and all the time in the world. We're talking about people who don't have enough time to get around to collect all the government handouts offered to them. It must be so stressful!
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 9:18 pm
Quoting El Barto !
Of course there are poor people in this country, but what qualifies theses days is ridiculous. I see people all the time, they've got newer cars, all the toys, dirt bikes, snow mobiles, whatever, they go to Florida, they've got cable or dish, smartphones, and all the time in the world. We're talking about people who don't have enough time to get around to collect all the government handouts offered to them. It must be so stressful!

Tragedy!
I was reading "For the love of physics", and apparently an American's energy use is equivalent to having 200 slaves working for them 12 hours a day, non-stop. And yeah, then when you factor in luxuries, everyone's very spoiled.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 9:23 pm
I'd say we need to do more for the people who deserve it, and make the rest actually work for it. Then maybe they'd have less time to have so many kids. With different fathers. And all the problems requiring more meds, more teacher's aides, and so on.
What a concept!?!? How about paying really rich and intelligent people to take some time off and have more kids? And spend time to raise them? Put the idol poor to work digging ditches, sweeping streets, whatever. Is that bad?
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 9:34 pm
 Group admin 
I fully agree that the work ethic in the Western world is VERY bad. But consider this:


If/when China becomes the largest economy, remember that it depends on a country with less than fifth of China's own population to survive. Now, I'm not saying that means the US can just sit around, but I am saying that we still have a lot of hope.


I think that the only way to bring back work ethic would be to restrict basic rights to citizens. The problem is how to do that without making it Unconstitutional....
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 9:46 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
I think that the only way to bring back work ethic would be to restrict basic rights to citizens. The problem is how to do that without making it Unconstitutional....

Poison the water supply, blame it on current government, have people elect a dictatorship. Thank you Mr. Moore.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 9:48 pm
Luke do you like the president
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 9:49 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Poison the water supply, blame it on current government, have people elect a dictatorship. Thank you Mr. Moore.


Well. Not exactly. I really don't want for that to happen. But there need to be SOME restrictions. Maybe teens should be more restricted from "distractions". But the big thing is that we need families with parents who encourage productivity.

Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 9:50 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
"Social" programs need to be cut back. VERY far back.

YES! Any fight over the debt is pointless until we go after the actual problem. Entitlement reform won't happen until conservatives have both house and the White House. Democrat votes all come from people who want free stuff, so they'll have nothing to do with it.
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Research into science, technology, medicine, etc should be INCREASED. Why? Because this research brings in revenue, and yes, we need it.

That won't happen until the medical device device tax in Obamacare goes away. It's a dis-incentive to research.
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Mine the c*rap out of every little piece of land you can get. You can get oil, natural gas, minerals, etc and be able to actually pay off the debt. (I want renewable energy, but its not nearly as profitable right now).

Yes! We've got an indefinite amt of energy, at least a century.

Quoting Achintya Prasad
Start up NASA (though that falls into research.....)

I'd love to go to Mars, be we need to fix the deficit first, and start paying down the debt.
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Presidents serve one 6 year term.

That's too long between elections if we get a bad presidents. Have you heard of the book "The Liberty Amendments" by Mark Levin? I haven't read it, but he's described the jist of it, plenty of great ideas similar to this.
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Education system in the US radically changed to better position students into a rapidly evolving world.

The problem is, H igh School does not prepare people to get a job anymore. Now college is almost necessary, but it's less affordable because of price gouging by the universities, motivated by rampant student loans.
Permalink
| October 2, 2013, 10:23 pm
I DARESAY WE SHUT DOWN THE INTERNET AND TAKE AWAY ALL WORLDY PLEASURES OF THE PEOPLE SO THE ONLY JOY THEY FIND IS IN THEIR JOB AND THEIR WORK. NOTHING ELSE.


Permalink
| October 3, 2013, 12:54 am
Quoting Achintya Prasad
I think that the only way to bring back work ethic would be to restrict basic rights to citizens. The problem is how to do that without making it Unconstitutional....

Slight difficulty with that is that the Amerilander constitution and bill of rights recognize, rather than create, rights.
In short, their government protects EXISTING rights that everyone has, whether they live in Ameriland or not.

It's only a slight difficulty, of course, since no-one in their government actually cares about what such old and outdated documents as their Constitution and Declaration of Independence have to say.
Quoting Bob the Almighty
I DARESAY WE SHUT DOWN THE INTERNET AND TAKE AWAY ALL WORLDY PLEASURES OF THE PEOPLE SO THE ONLY JOY THEY FIND IS IN THEIR JOB AND THEIR WORK. NOTHING ELSE.

It was designed from the ground up to be resistant to damage, so good luck with that.
Permalink
| October 3, 2013, 2:33 am
Quoting Michael K.
Quoting Locutus 666
I think the financial stuff is just a bad excuse.

I suppose doctors ought to work for free. They have hundreds of thousands of student loans to pay back, medical training is expensive, surely you know that.

Im not talkign about the paying the doctors bill. Im talking about how to finance the whole healthcare.
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| October 3, 2013, 6:46 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Locutus 666
Im not talkign about the paying the doctors bill. Im talking about how to finance the whole healthcare.

That's why it's expensive. Obamacare mandates that insurance companies provide more services for no copay. Logically the premium must go up. And they can't charge sick people more for insurance, so they raise the cost on everyone to make up.
Permalink
| October 3, 2013, 7:11 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Areetsa C
Slight difficulty with that is that the Amerilander constitution and bill of rights recognize, rather than create, rights.
In short, their government protects EXISTING rights that everyone has, whether they live in Ameriland or not.

It's only a slight difficulty, of course, since no-one in their government actually cares about what such old and outdated documents as their Constitution and Declaration of Independence have to say.
Quoting Bob the Almighty
I DARESAY WE SHUT DOWN THE INTERNET AND TAKE AWAY ALL WORLDY PLEASURES OF THE PEOPLE SO THE ONLY JOY THEY FIND IS IN THEIR JOB AND THEIR WORK. NOTHING ELSE.

It was designed from the ground up to be resistant to damage, so good luck with that.

Well, I gave all this a fair amount of thought. The only way forwards is to fix education (as it influences millions of Americans during a very important time in their lives). We have to make small increments to get back to the standards and results we saw back in 60's-80's. Like, we need to slow down the usage of the calculator (maybe allow it in, like, Algebra 2 or something, but not before then), etc. We need a plan of attack, and the place to start is where you learn that very plan.
Permalink
| October 3, 2013, 5:20 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
It was designed from the ground up to be resistant to damage, so good luck with that.

Well, I gave all this a fair amount of thought. The only way forwards is to fix education (as it influences millions of Americans during a very important time in their lives). We have to make small increments to get back to the standards and results we saw back in 60's-80's. Like, we need to slow down the usage of the calculator (maybe allow it in, like, Algebra 2 or something, but not before then), etc. We need a plan of attack, and the place to start is where you learn that very plan.

The idea of changing education is good. But how is the best way to implement it. Already, there are 1st, 2nd, 3rd graders with facebook and a presence on the internet. This, I think, is absurd.
Permalink
| October 3, 2013, 6:14 pm
In other words:
"People are too stupid to understand that what we want them to do is best for everyone, and we should force them into re-education camps to teach them to think like decent people."


I don't know if you two have been reading Marx, but what you're saying is pretty much a 1-1 match for commie policies.
Permalink
| October 4, 2013, 3:29 am
Quoting Bill Daniels.
Luke do you like the president

I don't think he's done anything worse than any other president, but neither has he done anything exceptional.
Permalink
| October 4, 2013, 7:04 am
Quoting Michael K.
That's why it's expensive. Obamacare mandates that insurance companies provide more services for no copay. Logically the premium must go up. And they can't charge sick people more for insurance, so they raise the cost on everyone to make up.

Im not sure if I understood you correctly but thats the point of social stuff.
Permalink
| October 4, 2013, 7:17 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Locutus 666
Im not sure if I understood you correctly but thats the point of social stuff.

This isn't being put across as socialism. In most states, the cost is going up by $4000-7000 a year, when a promise of reduction of $2000 was made. This is hurting the many to pay for the few.
Permalink
| October 4, 2013, 8:04 am
Funny thing;

Few weeks ago: "we need to bomb Syria!"

Few days ago: "we haven't got enough money to buy toilet paper for the White House!


Seems they're spending more money putting fences around war memorials and blocking off parks than they're saving by laying off all the superfluous unionists.
Permalink
| October 6, 2013, 10:43 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Areetsa C
Funny thing;

Few weeks ago: "we need to bomb Syria!"

Few days ago: "we haven't got enough money to buy toilet paper for the White House!


Seems they're spending more money putting fences around war memorials and blocking off parks than they're saving by laying off all the superfluous unionists.

.....clearly you don't realize that the US military is still operating under its maximum strength right now, even during this shutdown.
Permalink
| October 6, 2013, 11:23 am
Quoting Achintya Prasad
.....clearly you don't realize that the US military is still operating under its maximum strength right now, even during this shutdown.

he's right, if you work in the government under the armed forces, you work under maximum power. like on Thursday with the big thing in d.c. with the police chase. the capital police went in full throttle even though they went getting paid for it.


Permalink
| October 6, 2013, 12:30 pm
Quoting Michael K.
the many pay for the few.

Each of the many gives ten units of local currency. And if the "many" are a million, that is ten millions of your local currency to spend on those who have problems, regardless of whether they are rich or poor.

Once the poor are treated, they need treatment less often, because their problems stop reapearing and you have a healthier and cheaper society over a time of less than a generation. These poor and healthier people can now work more, pay more taxes and buy more items, increasing overall productivity.

I think it is good to look out for everyone, if you are not going for eugenics. And basing your eugenism on money is not the way to do it.
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| October 6, 2013, 12:45 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Deus "Big D." Otiosus
Once the poor are treated, they need treatment less often, because their problems stop reapearing and you have a healthier and cheaper society over a time of less than a generation. These poor and healthier people can now work more, pay more taxes and buy more items, increasing overall productivity.

You are talking about a safety net, everyone agrees that is good. What ends up happening, is that people are dependant on the government, and vote for the politician giving out the most goodies. The Obamaphone lady, the Obamastash lady, the lady who thought Obama was going to pay her house and her car...
Permalink
| October 6, 2013, 12:52 pm
I work for fedgov. The general public doesn't need to be greatly concerned about the government "shutdown". essential things are still being funded. The money for those has already been divided up into various agencies operating budgets. The worst that is happening to the general public is that the current executive administration is being a real jerk about it, spending more money they don't have to limit access to things than they would spend by leaving them open.

Actually, you should be happy, as there won't be any more funds available to arm the terrorist factions in syria; then start a war with those same terrorists.
Permalink
| October 7, 2013, 7:45 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting JWG 258

Well, apart from the defunding of NASA, the looming debt ceiling, and the negative impact on our economy, as well as "words of caution" from other countries, yes, things are alright. Oh, and Congress is being paid.
Permalink
| October 7, 2013, 7:47 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Well, apart from the defunding of NASA, the looming debt ceiling, and the negative impact on our economy, as well as "words of caution" from other countries, yes, things are alright. Oh, and Congress is being paid.


Unless you work for NASA or one of the companies that do contract work for NASA, you will be unaffected by that. "negative impact on the economy" and "words of caution from other countries" are MSNBC sound bites meant to frighten sheeple and children. BOO!
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| October 7, 2013, 7:55 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting JWG 258

Unless you work for NASA or one of the companies that do contract work for NASA, you will be unaffected by that. "negative impact on the economy" and "words of caution from other countries" are MSNBC sound bites meant to frighten sheeple and children. BOO!

Hmm. That isn't what I have read.

The shutdown could/will lead to the US economic growth to slow by 0.3%-0.4%. That's a lot, considering that the growth of the US economy is around 2-3%. Of course, this shutdown is already waving a flag of good fortune to China.

The shutdown also has a morale impact on the US, which can not be measured. However, seeing how literally two people are literally playing the silent game may bring this great country to a collapse, I think that impact is quite large.

This is embarrassing. You'd think that the "praised" Obama would actually care about the gov't. Mind you, the GOP are equally in the wrong. My suggestion? Vote each and every one of those imbeciles out of office, and put in some people that actually care.
Permalink
| October 7, 2013, 9:01 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
My suggestion? Vote each and every one of those imbeciles out of office, and put in some people that actually care.

Finally! Someone who understands that Obama is an id*iot.
Permalink
| October 7, 2013, 9:04 pm
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Hmm. That isn't what I have read.

The shutdown could/will lead to the US economic growth to slow by 0.3%-0.4%. That's a lot, considering that the growth of the US economy is around 2-3%. Of course, this shutdown is already waving a flag of good fortune to China.

The shutdown also has a morale impact on the US, which can not be measured. However, seeing how literally two people are literally playing the silent game may bring this great country to a collapse, I think that impact is quite large.

This is embarrassing. You'd think that the "praised" Obama would actually care about the gov't. Mind you, the GOP are equally in the wrong. My suggestion? Vote each and every one of those imbeciles out of office, and put in some people that actually care.


While the government was in operation they slowed US economic growth. I don't know by how much because they fudge the numbers.

My morale has remained steady. The commisary on base is shut down, but thats just Obama being a jerk and willfully disrupting everything he can(throwing a tantrum). Meanwhile, they still have to run the meat lockers and freezer cases at the commisary while making $0 in sales. Meanwhile, the produce rots in the produce bins.

I am confident that there will be a major shake-up in congress. Then we may get some people in there who know how to manage money.
Permalink
| October 7, 2013, 9:24 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting JWG 258
The general public doesn't need to be greatly concerned about the government "shutdown". essential things are still being funded. The money for those has already been divided up into various agencies operating budgets. The worst that is happening to the general public is that the current executive administration is being a real jerk about it, spending more money they don't have to limit access to things than they would spend by leaving them open.

Actually, you should be happy, as there won't be any more funds available to arm the terrorist factions in syria; then start a war with those same terrorists.

NO politician or political commentator has said it better than you have..
Quoting JWG 258
I work for fedgov.

Out of curiosity, what do you do?
Permalink
| October 7, 2013, 9:54 pm
 Group admin 
Anybody want to defend Obama and Reid's position that they won't even talk to Repubs until they get 100% of their way.
Permalink
| October 7, 2013, 9:55 pm
Quoting Michael K.
Anybody want to defend Obama and Reid's position that they won't even talk to Repubs until they get 100% of their way.

Nope. Wor*st president EVER!
Permalink
| October 7, 2013, 9:56 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Michael K.
Anybody want to defend Obama and Reid's position that they won't even talk to Repubs until they get 100% of their way.

Impeach them.
Permalink
| October 7, 2013, 10:05 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting JWG 258

While the government was in operation they slowed US economic growth. I don't know by how much because they fudge the numbers.

My morale has remained steady. The commisary on base is shut down, but thats just Obama being a jerk and willfully disrupting everything he can(throwing a tantrum). Meanwhile, they still have to run the meat lockers and freezer cases at the commisary while making $0 in sales. Meanwhile, the produce rots in the produce bins.

I am confident that there will be a major shake-up in congress. Then we may get some people in there who know how to manage money.

A major shake up is in store. And boy, will it be a good one. I have a feeling that its just the folks in Congress and, of course, the President; they all can't be that badly off course, or this country would be in a civil war that was started fifteen years ago.


Question now is this: is the education system in the US producing the next president(s) and congressmen/women?
Permalink
| October 7, 2013, 10:07 pm
Most government workers are going unpaid, but what about people on welfare? Have they been laid off, or are they more important?
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| October 8, 2013, 3:13 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
Most government workers are going unpaid, but what about people on welfare? Have they been laid off, or are they more important?

For now, more important (I think). But if we hit the debt ceiling. Honestly, that is a cataclysmic event. The US is the cornerstone for the ENTIRE WORLD. As they say; when the US sneezes, the world catches a cold. And in this case, the US could end up with the flu....
Permalink
| October 8, 2013, 5:55 pm
I think you're overstating the importance of the USA. Sure, we do a lot of stuff. We matter. But we aren't the cornerstone of the world. I hope and believe that people could survive without us.
Permalink
| October 8, 2013, 6:03 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting BobaFett 2
I think you're overstating the importance of the USA. Sure, we do a lot of stuff. We matter. But we aren't the cornerstone of the world. I hope and believe that people could survive without us.

Sorry man. That ain't the case.

If the dollar collapses, well, international trading doesn't work as smoothly as before. Everything is compared to the dollar, so if it crashes, where do you go?

The US is the second largest exporter of goods in the world. That is VERY vital.

The US military budget will be cut by 33%. EACH MONTH. This will have lasting repercussions on the military might of the UN and NATO.

Who will keep and eye out in space? NASA for sure would die.

International security offered by the CIA and FBI would fall immediately.

It would be that bad. And probably worse.
Permalink
| October 8, 2013, 6:08 pm
Well. If we disappeared, it'd depend on how we went. Would we economically crash? Militarily? Culturally? Would we take down anyone else with us?

On a side note, this'd make for interesting conversation. "A World Without The USA"
Permalink
| October 8, 2013, 11:45 pm

I try to pick less biased sources.

The federal government pays for people to maintain the parks, and if they can't pay them, then they close the park.
Permalink
| October 11, 2013, 4:34 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting BobaFett 2
I try to pick less biased sources.

I see what you're saying, but the stories are still true.
Quoting BobaFett 2
The federal government pays for people to maintain the parks, and if they can't pay them, then they close the park.

That sounds logical on the surface, but they are closing things they DON'T pay for, like barricading private businesses, closing state parks, and stopping people taking pictures. A park ranger said they've been told to make life as inconvenient as possible.
Permalink
| October 11, 2013, 4:44 pm
Quoting Michael K.
Quoting BobaFett 2
I try to pick less biased sources.

I see what you're saying, but the stories are still true.
Quoting BobaFett 2
The federal government pays for people to maintain the parks, and if they can't pay them, then they close the park.

That sounds logical on the surface, but they are closing things they DON'T pay for, like barricading private businesses, closing state parks, and stopping people taking pictures. A park ranger said they've been told to make life as inconvenient as possible.

The federal government isn't paying for state parks, but state governments can reopen their parks with their own money for the duration of the shutdown.

I'd like a separate source for the closing business things, preferably CNN, NY Times, Politico, or something like that.
Permalink
| October 11, 2013, 4:49 pm
Quoting Bill Daniels.
Do you guys like Obama?

no i wish rombny was the presadent
Permalink
| October 12, 2013, 12:43 pm
Quoting Spencer A
no i wish rombny was the presadent

Ooookay (spelling?).

Why do you prefer Romney to Obama?
Permalink
| October 12, 2013, 12:44 pm
Quoting BobaFett 2
Ooookay (spelling?).

Why do you prefer Romney to Obama?

i know my spilling is bad. because Romney gives pepole jobs and Obama gets jobs out of business
Permalink
| October 12, 2013, 12:50 pm
Quoting Spencer A
i know my spilling is bad. because Romney gives pepole jobs and Obama gets jobs out of business

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/01/romneys-shaky-job-claims/

As governor, jobs were created under Romney. Net jobs lost/gained from Bain is harder to calculate. Under Obama, we were in the middle of a severe recession/depression. Now that the recession is over, we're getting more jobs.

Permalink
| October 12, 2013, 1:05 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting BobaFett 2
http://www.factcheck.org/2012/01/romneys-shaky-job-claims/

As governor, jobs were created under Romney. Net jobs lost/gained from Bain is harder to calculate. Under Obama, we were in the middle of a severe recession/depression. Now that the recession is over, we're getting more jobs.

The recession is not over. The only reason there is a sliver of growth is because the Fed keeps pumping $ into the economy. The only reason unemployment is down is because, by the admission of the Labor Department, more people are giving up looking for work than are finding jobs. 80% of the jobs created under Obama are part time jobs. More people than ever are on entitlement programs.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 9:35 am
 Group admin 
So those of us against Obamacare, do you think shutting down the government is the right strategy? I think the only way people will wake up to socialism is if they feel the pain under the welfare state that they voted for. Abe Lincoln once said the best way to repeal a bad law is to enforce it.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 9:37 am
Quoting Michael K.
The recession is not over. The only reason there is a sliver of growth is because the Fed keeps pumping $ into the economy. The only reason unemployment is down is because, by the admission of the Labor Department, more people are giving up looking for work than are finding jobs. 80% of the jobs created under Obama are part time jobs. More people than ever are on entitlement programs.

It's actually been over for a few years, even if economic hard times have stayed with us.

Yes, it's true that a large number of the jobs are part time. Obama's performance has been less than stellar, but he's not the only one doing the steering - there's always been gridlock (no supermajority, which shouldn't even be a requirement in the Senate, because one of the Democrats was sick/old).

Quoting Michael K.
So those of us against Obamacare, do you think shutting down the government is the right strategy? I think the only way people will wake up to socialism is if they feel the pain under the welfare state that they voted for. Abe Lincoln once said the best way to repeal a bad law is to enforce it.

I'm not opposed to Romneycare, (let's just call it the ACA) but I'd like to point out that many aspects of Socialism are actually good ones (and Socialism isn't Communism).

Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 9:47 am
 Group admin 
Quoting BobaFett 2
It's actually been over for a few years, even if economic hard times have stayed with us.

You just contradicted yourself. A recession IS slow/no economic growth, which means hard times.
Quoting BobaFett 2
- there's always been gridlock (no supermajority, which shouldn't even be a requirement in the Senate, because one of the Democrats was sick/old).

I'm not a fan of the Republican establishment, but the reason for the supermajority is that the founders thought there should be a wide consensus to pass a law. A commonly used example is that the 51% shouldn't be able to oppress the 49%
Quoting BobaFett 2
Romneycare,

For starters, Romneycare and Obamacare are 2 different laws. Romneycare was just for Massachusetts. Obamacare was rammed down our throats with a sneaky legislative maneuver at midnight, during a lame duck congress, a one size fits all plan for the whole country.
Quoting BobaFett 2
point out that many aspects of Socialism are actually good ones (and Socialism isn't Communism).

Please point them out, I am not aware of any.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 10:07 am
I had a long reply, but it's not showing up.

Look up when the recession ended. Various sources say that it ended during Obama's first term. I had a link to the NYTimes and CNN, but my post isn't showing up.

Do you dislike it because you believe it's not conservative enough or too conservative?

The filibuster isn't part of the constitution. It was created by congress and first used in the 1830s, I think. And the point, up until recently, was never to make it so that nobody could pass a law without a supermajority. It was never intended by the people who did make it to require a supermajority for every law. Democracy may be "tyranny of the majority", but

The job of government is to pass laws. They passed a law which the majority of people actually support (only 30 something percent of people are opposed to it, according to recent polling).

Nordic Socialism and British Socialism look pretty nice. Socialism is, basically, government controlled industries - how about mail, garbage collection, and emergency services? There are alternatives to the first two, not sure about the third, but those are examples of government controlling an industry.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 10:42 am
Quoting BobaFett 2
I try to pick less biased sources.
Don't invoke source bias in these sorts of debates. It's something that's nigh impossible to measure, and declaring that a source is bias will most likely degenerate into a "Yes it is! No it's not," style debate, which won't get you anywhere.
It's impossible for you to pick unbiased sources because you yourself are biased and you will see those sources biased the same way as unbiased. Everyone has the same problem. Indeed, even the sources do, so there probably exists no unbiased source. My proposed solution is for you to cite sources as biased as you like towards your views, they can cite sources as biased as they like towards their views, and nobody complains.

Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 10:56 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
Quoting BobaFett 2
I try to pick less biased sources.
Don't invoke source bias in these sorts of debates. It's something that's nigh impossible to measure, and declaring that a source is bias will most likely degenerate into a "Yes it is! No it's not," style debate, which won't get you anywhere.
It's impossible for you to pick unbiased sources because you yourself are biased and you will see those sources biased the same way as unbiased. Everyone has the same problem. Indeed, even the sources do, so there probably exists no unbiased source. My proposed solution is for you to cite sources as biased as you like towards your views, they can cite sources as biased as they like towards their views, and nobody complains.

There's a big difference in the large bias of sources like Breitbart, Fox, and MSNBC from the much smaller bias of slight left sites like NYTimes and CNN and slightly right Politico.

Obviously no source is completely unbiased, but choosing the more center sources is a sound practice.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 10:58 am
Quoting BobaFett 2
I had a long reply, but it's not showing up.

Look up when the recession ended. Various sources say that it ended during Obama's first term. I had a link to the NYTimes and CNN, but my post isn't showing up.

Do you dislike it because you believe it's not conservative enough or too conservative?

The filibuster isn't part of the constitution. It was created by congress and first used in the 1830s, I think. And the point, up until recently, was never to make it so that nobody could pass a law without a supermajority. It was never intended by the people who did make it to require a supermajority for every law. Democracy may be "tyranny of the majority", but

The job of government is to pass laws. They passed a law which the majority of people actually support (only 30 something percent of people are opposed to it, according to recent polling).

Nordic Socialism and British Socialism look pretty nice. Socialism is, basically, government controlled industries - how about mail, garbage collection, and emergency services? There are alternatives to the first two, not sure about the third, but those are examples of government controlling an industry.

The government has a tendency to abuse power, so it's usually best to give it the minimum amount necessary. Giving it control over industries that can be run equally well outside the government is superfluous and likely to go wrong.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:01 am
Quoting BobaFett 2
There's a big difference in the large bias of sources like Breitbart, Fox, and MSNBC from the much smaller bias of slight left sites like NYTimes and CNN and slightly right Politico.

Obviously no source is completely unbiased, but choosing the more center sources is a sound practice.

It is, but it's pretty much impossible to do.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:02 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
It is, but it's pretty much impossible to do.

Actually, it's not. Again, the last three sites I listed are pretty centric. The people who claim that they aren't are the people on the far right, generally.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:04 am
Quoting Bob the inconceivably invincible
The government has a tendency to abuse power, so it's usually best to give it the minimum amount necessary. Giving it control over industries that can be run equally well outside the government is superfluous and likely to go wrong.

That's an opinion, one which I disagree with. It's a lot harder to abuse power in the US government, and I'm not suggesting that we make it run production - I just want to regulate them so that workers are safe and make enough money to live a decent life.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:09 am
 Group admin 
If you ask me, what is going in DC is sad, because apparently, the GOP and Obama are willing to, and I'm not exaggerating, BRING THE WORLD TO ITS KNEES just to get their "agenda" across. This is simply too far; I call for each and one of these buffoons to be impeached, and replaced by people that actually know what to do.

Also, another thing: NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER let a Congressmen run for office again. Lincoln was good, but Obama? NO. Congress is different than the Executive branch. Would you want a civil engineer to design and airplane? Or would you want a dentist to perform an open heart surgery? Exactly.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:10 am
Quoting Achintya Prasad
If you ask me, what is going in DC is sad, because apparently, the GOP and Obama are willing to, and I'm not exaggerating, BRING THE WORLD TO ITS KNEES just to get their "agenda" across. This is simply too far; I call for each and one of these buffoons to be impeached, and replaced by people that actually know what to do.

Also, another thing: NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER let a Congressmen run for office again. Lincoln was good, but Obama? NO. Congress is different than the Executive branch. Would you want a civil engineer to design and airplane? Or would you want a dentist to perform an open heart surgery? Exactly.

They aren't bringing the world to its knees. If this last for long enough, it'll probably have negative effects on the world economy, but again, you're attributing too much importance to the US.

Also, I have no idea what the last few sentences are about.

Also, you're blaming both sides for something ridiculous. One side believes that it's okay to shut down the government over a law the majority of the country supports.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:14 am
 Group admin 
Quoting BobaFett 2
They aren't bringing the world to its knees. If this last for long enough, it'll probably have negative effects on the world economy, but again, you're attributing too much importance to the US.

Also, I have no idea what the last few sentences are about.

Also, you're blaming both sides for something ridiculous. One side believes that it's okay to shut down the government over a law the majority of the country supports.

It. Alright. If the Gov't doesn't get it self straight, than the US will default on its debt. Why is that bad? Well, the dollar, which is the backbone for the world economy, would free fall. What else will free fall? Stock markets, jobs. The only thing that will go up is prices on goods.

Of course I'm blaming both sides. I really don't care as to what either side says/stands for. They are NOT willing to "negotiate". Why is there even this negotiation going on? Obviously, the point is that neither side really wants to fix the problem, as they are still getting paid for this hassle and tango. Impeach em all.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:18 am
Quoting Achintya Prasad
It. Alright. If the Gov't doesn't get it self straight, than the US will default on its debt. Why is that bad? Well, the dollar, which is the backbone for the world economy, would free fall. What else will free fall? Stock markets, jobs. The only thing that will go up is prices on goods.

Of course I'm blaming both sides. I really don't care as to what either side says/stands for. They are NOT willing to "negotiate". Why is there even this negotiation going on? Obviously, the point is that neither side really wants to fix the problem, as they are still getting paid for this hassle and tango. Impeach em all.

See, again, blanket response. That's unfair. If I am holding a gun against your head and demanding that you negotiate with me, who is the villain in this scenario?

Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:25 am
Quoting Michael K.
Quoting BobaFett 2
Look up when the recession ended. Various sources say that it ended during Obama's first term.

Do you dislike it because you believe it's not conservative enough or too conservative?

Quoting BobaFett 2
The job of government is to pass laws. They passed a law which the majority of people actually support (only 30 something percent of people are opposed to it, according to recent polling).

You are citing the NBC/WSJ poll, which oversamples democrats and government workers by a large margin.
Quoting BobaFett 2
Nordic Socialism and British Socialism look pretty nice.

Yes, high taxes and rationing and debt are pretty nice
Quoting BobaFett 2
how about mail, garbage collection, and emergency services? There are alternatives to the first two, not sure about the third, but those are examples of government controlling an industry.

Those are legitimate functions of government. If government wouldn't pay for fire and police, no one would. The government doesn't run the mail industry. You aren't forced to use the USPS, go to UPS or FedEx if you want. Garbage is run by local gov't and they do it well.

I know that you aren't forced to use the USPS. And you may consider them legitimate functions, but I consider healthcare and welfare of those who need help to be a legitimate function of government. The non-government system only worked well for the people at the top.

Source please? High taxes work fine if you provide quality services for them. High taxes worked great during the cold war.

I don't think that's the same poll. I'm trying to find it right now.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:28 am
 Group admin 
Quoting BobaFett 2
Look up when the recession ended. Various sources say that it ended during Obama's first term.

Obama saying it's over doesn't make it over. The economy is still experiencing little/no growth. People are dropping out of the workforce faster than jobs are being made.
Quoting BobaFett 2
Do you dislike it because you believe it's not conservative enough or too conservative?

There are 2 main points of it I don't oppose, and 2 main points why it will fail.
Like:
1 I like the idea of health care exchanges (don't see why the feds have to run it, they don't run hardly anything well, but that's not the point)
2 Sliding scale subsidies, basically they pay half your insurance if you're poor. Let's be clear, I don't support a welfare state, but if we're gonna have one, this is a better way to do it than what we do with Medicare and Medicaid.

Dislike:
1 Preexisting conditions mandate: can't charge you more if you're sick. This means there is no consequence if you wait till you're sick to buy insurance, it kind of defeats the purpose of insurance. So what do insurance companies do? Raise the cost on the healthy people to cover the sick people.
2 Coverage mandates: They ram a Cadillac insurance plan down everyone's throat. Example: all plans must cover hospital maternity care. If you are old or single, why would you ever use this? People should be able to only buy the coverage they need for THEM. A young healthy person should be able to only buy catastrophic coverage if they want. This ensures that smaller companies aren't forced out of the market, and that premiums are kept low.

Quoting BobaFett 2
The job of government is to pass laws. They passed a law which the majority of people actually support (only 30 something percent of people are opposed to it, according to recent polling).

You are citing the NBC/WSJ poll, which oversamples democrats and government workers by a large margin.
Quoting BobaFett 2
Nordic Socialism and British Socialism look pretty nice.

Yes, high taxes and rationing and debt are pretty nice
Quoting BobaFett 2
how about mail, garbage collection, and emergency services? There are alternatives to the first two, not sure about the third, but those are examples of government controlling an industry.

Those are legitimate functions of government. If government wouldn't pay for fire and police, no one would. The government doesn't run the mail industry. You aren't forced to use the USPS, go to UPS or FedEx if you want. Garbage is run by local gov't and they do it well.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:30 am
 Group admin 
Quoting BobaFett 2
See, again, blanket response. That's unfair. If I am holding a gun against your head and demanding that you negotiate with me, who is the villain in this scenario?

No. That isn't the point. My question is why did this happen in the first place? Look, I realize that the stubborn-ness of the GOP is probably the biggest factor here. But let me ask you: who is has constantly rejected EVERY SINGLE bill/idea/proposal? Obama. And because of that, the whole world are battening down their hatches, in preparation for the next Great Depression.

The first people that begin to listen and want to fix this government, can stay until the end of their term. Everyone else, impeach 'em, on counts of harming the Union.

Also, just a sidenote, but you know Obamacare? The thing that really ticks me off is "functionality" of the site i.e. it doesn't work. The website is slow, it doesn't work well. What were they thinking off when they released it to the public?
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:30 am
Quoting Achintya Prasad
No. That isn't the point. My question is why did this happen in the first place? Look, I realize that the stubborn-ness of the GOP is probably the biggest factor here. But let me ask you: who is has constantly rejected EVERY SINGLE bill/idea/proposal? Obama. And because of that, the whole world are battening down their hatches, in preparation for the next Great Depression.

The first people that begin to listen and want to fix this government, can stay until the end of their term. Everyone else, impeach 'em, on counts of harming the Union.

Also, just a sidenote, but you know Obamacare? The thing that really ticks me off is "functionality" of the site i.e. it doesn't work. The website is slow, it doesn't work well. What were they thinking off when they released it to the public?

So if the Republicans are opposed to everything Obama does, it's his fault?

Unfortunately, our government is far from perfect and they didn't do a good job with the site.

What is there to negotiate? The program is already law. Seriously, a gun against the head should NOT be a valid negotiation tactic and blame against the person the gun is pointed at is unfair.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:34 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
But let me ask you: who is has constantly rejected EVERY SINGLE bill/idea/proposal? Obama. And because of that, the whole world are battening down their hatches, in preparation for the next Great Depression.

Obama isn't the ringleader here. It's mostly sourpuss Harry Reid's fault. Obama is starting to regret taking his advice, he saw his poll numbers tanking, and negotiations are now making "progress".
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:35 am
 Group admin 
Quoting BobaFett 2
So if the Republicans are opposed to everything Obama does, it's his fault?

Unfortunately, our government is far from perfect and they didn't do a good job with the site.

What is there to negotiate? The program is already law. Seriously, a gun against the head should NOT be a valid negotiation tactic and blame against the person the gun is pointed at is unfair.

Now wait a minute, you are saying that the GOP is totally at fault? Well, once again, let me ask, why is the Obama administration not accepting any of the new proposals, or at the very least, diligently working to fix this? It doesn't look like they honestly care. Yes, the GOP shut the gov't down. But the Obama administration has done nothing but prolonged it, simply because they aren't having their "agenda" met.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:36 am
I'm pretty sure it wasn't just Obama who said that the recession was over. Growth was slow but we were out of the recession. I trust economists to understand economics.

True, the law is far from perfect. I agree with the second dislike, but I think that the point of the first is so that life is less unfair to those with some chronic condition.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:37 am
Quoting Achintya Prasad
Now wait a minute, you are saying that the GOP is totally at fault? Well, once again, let me ask, why is the Obama administration not accepting any of the new proposals, or at the very least, diligently working to fix this? It doesn't look like they honestly care. Yes, the GOP shut the gov't down. But the Obama administration has done nothing but prolonged it, simply because they aren't having their "agenda" met.

The GOP "just" wants to get rid of what is more or less the only thing Obama and the Democrats have been able to do due to their obstruction. Not only that, but they went to a LOT of work to pass this law.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:38 am
 Group admin 
Quoting BobaFett 2
True, the law is far from perfect. I agree with the second dislike, but I think that the point of the first is so that life is less unfair to those with some chronic condition.

Being in an unfortunate situation doesn't give them the right to reach into someone elses pocket, and drive up everyone elses cost. If they want insurance, they should have to pay a fair price to cover the increased risk, like how car insurance costs more for bad drivers.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:51 am
Quoting Michael K.
Being in an unfortunate situation doesn't give them the right to reach into someone elses pocket, and drive up everyone elses cost. If they want insurance, they should have to pay a fair price to cover the increased risk, like how car insurance costs more for bad drivers.

It's the insurance companies that do that.

There's a difference between bad driving and a pre-existing condition. Sure, some people are naturally bad at driving, but that can be fixed.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:53 am
 Group admin 
Quoting BobaFett 2
It's the insurance companies that do that.

There's a difference between bad driving and a pre-existing condition. Sure, some people are naturally bad at driving, but that can be fixed.

Whether you can help it makes no difference. More risk/cost to the insurer means more premium.
Permalink
| October 13, 2013, 11:56 am
I really wonder, that the USA still have a triple A rating by all that US(!!)-rating agencies. As soon as a europe country gets some financial probs they decrease their rating to B or C.
Actual the USA cant pay their officers and a total bankrup is imminent.
Rating USA: AAA
Permalink
| October 16, 2013, 2:50 am
Okay the reason the government shut down is because they couldn't agree on a budget. And the reason we are million's and million's of dollars in debt is because of all the unnecessary spending. The next generation is going to suffer from the obama care and the trips to Hawaii and everywhere else. We (the next generation) are going to have to pay more than a million dollars back to the government just to get it out of the debt crisis. So whatever obama is doing is not helping our country he is dragging it down and down so we will all suffer for decades to come.
Permalink
| October 21, 2013, 5:53 pm
There are some words I would like to use that would get me banned, so I'll give the censored version:

Everyone is at fault, Democrats, Republicans, Congress, and the President. They all put party politics first, and ignore the good of the people. They won't compromise, and only work on temporary fixes.

Here's a grand and unheard of idea: PAY OFF THE DEBT!

It won't be easy, but it will avoid so many future problems and get China off our back.

I could go on longer, but I'd just rant and lose your attention.
Permalink
| October 21, 2013, 9:17 pm
Quoting Jack K
There are some words I would like to use that would get me banned, so I'll give the censored version:

Everyone is at fault, Democrats, Republicans, Congress, and the President. They all put party politics first, and ignore the good of the people. They won't compromise, and only work on temporary fixes.

Here's a grand and unheard of idea: PAY OFF THE DEBT!

It won't be easy, but it will avoid so many future problems and get China off our back.

I could go on longer, but I'd just rant and lose your attention.

You can't just pay off the debt.

I do think that we should deal with it, but too many people are opposed to higher taxes, and significant cuts hurt the economy or the poor.

There's a lot of stuff that has to happen but it's ridiculous to blame everyone and assume that it can all just be fixed.

Also, when someone holds a gun to your head, it's their fault, not yours.
Permalink
| October 21, 2013, 9:18 pm
Quoting BobaFett 2
Also, when someone holds a gun to your head, it's their fault, not yours.

When they're holding a gun to your head because you've steadfastly refused to fulfil a contract, yes it is.

That's the flipside of debt, you know; a loan is really just a contract where side A says
"If you give me X SCU's today, I'll give you X+Y percent on DATE"
to which side B adds
"But if you DON'T give me X+Y percent SCU's when DATE comes around, I'll make you."
Permalink
| October 22, 2013, 2:08 am
the current cost of the war in Iraq is now $812,919,196,779 and still rising .....
have fun America
Permalink
| October 22, 2013, 4:33 am
Quoting kaeleb appleyard
the current cost of the war in Iraq is now $812,919,196,779 and still rising .....
have fun America


Permalink
| October 22, 2013, 5:44 am
Quoting Eve Daniels
Okay the reason the government shut down is because they couldn't agree on a budget. And the reason we are million's and million's of dollars in debt is because of all the unnecessary spending. The next generation is going to suffer from the obama care and the trips to Hawaii and everywhere else. We (the next generation) are going to have to pay more than a million dollars back to the government just to get it out of the debt crisis. So whatever obama is doing is not helping our country he is dragging it down and down so we will all suffer for decades to come.

If I have a look at the debt before Bush jr.becomes president and then the debt 8years later when he leaves washington, you know who future gernations should thanks most!
Permalink
| October 22, 2013, 7:25 am
Quoting Jack K
Democrats, Republicans,

I will not pretend I know your political situation, but as much as I can make out, it seems that it is very similar to my country's. Two political sides opposing each other just so they do not agree on anything. And the casualty is the people.

This is no one person's fault. Not even a group's. The problem is that people allow this kind of conflict.
Permalink
| October 22, 2013, 9:50 am
 Group admin 
At least the sequester stayed. I would have liked for special exemptions to go, also.
Permalink
| October 22, 2013, 9:03 pm
Quoting BobaFett 2
You can't just pay off the debt.

I do think that we should deal with it, but too many people are opposed to higher taxes, and significant cuts hurt the economy or the poor.

There's a lot of stuff that has to happen but it's ridiculous to blame everyone and assume that it can all just be fixed.

Also, when someone holds a gun to your head, it's their fault, not yours.

I know that paying off the debt would be very difficult, but with the right leadership, legislation, some cooperation, and some time, it could happen.

I agree that we need to deal with it in the mean time. Higher taxes can be used, but some people pay ridiculous taxes, and no matter how rich you are, taxes bite.

Here's a more detailed break down of why I blame all of them:
-Republicans effectively started the shutdown, and then began to argue among themselves
-Democrats: Refused to negotiate anything at all, then said they will negotiate when their terms are met
-Obama: For the first week, he just sat there and watched. He showed very little leadership of his part, or the country as a whole

This is all my personal interpretations and opinions.
Permalink
| October 23, 2013, 7:04 am
 Group admin 
When you forget your own opinion, objectively, it's both sides fault. It happened because they couldn't agree on a budget. You could equally blame the Democrats for not agreeing to what the Repubs want, as much as you could blame the Repubs for not agreeing to what the Democrats want.
After the gov't shut down, the House, including the Democrats there, passed appropriations bills, like what's SUPPOSED to happen. Normally, congress passes 12-13 appropriations bills, that fund each separate part of the government. This "all or nothing" approach to funding the gov't has only been happening for the last 5 years.
Permalink
| October 23, 2013, 5:00 pm
Quoting TRON 117
(created with permission from Michael K.)

So, Yesterday or today, what ever your time zone is... The U.S Government Shutdown because of the fight over Obama Care. Putting millions out of pay. How do you take this... So, debate.
I'm going to be honest. I love the shutdown. But now the government is back up, I'm mad. Now people think if this happens again which I can guarantee it will, it will be permanent. That means we can start back at square one. This country is like at the bottom of the list. We owe trillions of dollars. Yet we keep printing more every single day. This is just wrong. And also I'm no Republican or Democrat. I'm libertarian. This is my choice alone. My parents didn't talk me into following them. It was my own choice. answer me this: Is drones a good thing? Not just that in general. Please go read this article some guy wrote on what he thinks. I gotta agree with him on most subjects. http://www.rense.com/general77/wrong.htm

Permalink
| November 3, 2013, 5:28 pm
Quoting Locutus 666
For europeans the actual happenings in the USA look very strange. We see a president who tries to give the poor people a health care. What in Germany works very well since 1883 leads in 2013 to a shutdown in the USA. Its incredible! My hint: put all those republicans and those teaparty-nazis in a rocket and shoot them to the moon.
I gotta agree. But its the Democrats too. Did you hear the news of about 2000 truckers going to D.C to protest against the government? I wish I could've gone...

Permalink
| November 3, 2013, 5:34 pm
Quoting Sir. Knockin'
Quoting Locutus 666
For europeans the actual happenings in the USA look very strange. We see a president who tries to give the poor people a health care. What in Germany works very well since 1883 leads in 2013 to a shutdown in the USA. Its incredible! My hint: put all those republicans and those teaparty-nazis in a rocket and shoot them to the moon.
I gotta agree. But its the Democrats too. Did you hear the news of about 2000 truckers going to D.C to protest against the government? I wish I could've gone...

No, not yet.
Permalink
| November 4, 2013, 7:28 am
Everything is back up and running. Nothing has changed. The shutdown was a big waste of time. The Republicans should have kept their mouths shut and let the whole Obamacare senario play itself out. A complete mess. In the end the Republicans would have come up smelling like roses.
Permalink
| November 17, 2013, 1:51 am
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