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Giving credit
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Adam Thelegofan Rutland has still a problem with giving credit. He added a new creation and said it's his design. It's not his design, i did the main design first in November. Please stop him, it's no fairplay.

Here is his creation: http://www.mocpages.com/moc.php/379802

And here mine: http://www.mocpages.com/moc.php/373658

Thanks for your help.
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| January 27, 2014, 12:35 pm
This guy again?

In his defense, he did tweak some things.
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| January 27, 2014, 12:39 pm
Btw, he did the same several times in the past with others creations...
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| January 27, 2014, 12:40 pm
 Group moderator 
Sven, did you report it in Brick Busters. They normally deal with this stuff.
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| January 27, 2014, 12:46 pm
Yes Caleb, this guy again. He tweak some things but uses the ideas/designs from others and says it's his own. Where is the problem with giving credit??
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| January 27, 2014, 12:46 pm
@Andros, do you have a link? Thanks for the fast reply bud :)
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| January 27, 2014, 12:47 pm
To be honest, it doesn't really look all that similar. Sure, the wheel idea is similar, but there are still lots of differences, and given the small size, it's to be expected - after all, there's only so many ways you can make something this small. Sorry, but I don't really see this one as a big issue.
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| January 27, 2014, 12:48 pm
Believe me, he never had this idea by himself. Like i said before, he did it several times in the past and caused a lot of trouble. One cannot let him get away with that again and again and again...

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| January 27, 2014, 1:02 pm
Quoting Halhi 141
To be honest, it doesn't really look all that similar. Sure, the wheel idea is similar, but there are still lots of differences, and given the small size, it's to be expected - after all, there's only so many ways you can make something this small. Sorry, but I don't really see this one as a big issue.

I would agree, the only problem is that he posted it as a MOC by itself.
Permalink
| January 27, 2014, 1:03 pm
Well, now i found brickbusters. Posted it again there.
Permalink
| January 27, 2014, 1:57 pm
 Group admin 
I'm sorry, Sven, but to me it doesn't look to be a direct swipe. I'd certainly say it's inspired by your design...but, in my opinion there are enough differences. In copyright law, there needs to be an approximately 20% variation in a design to avoid an infringement. I'm seeing that 20%.

I think it would have been nice of Adam to at least say that his design was inspired by yours, however.

Chris or Sean might feel otherwise, of course. If that's the case, they'll delete the page and Adam will get blacklisted (which jeopardizes his account, if further infractions are recorded). But, I'm going to let it stand.

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| January 27, 2014, 3:12 pm
Quoting Mark Kelso
I'm sorry, Sven, but to me it doesn't look to be a direct swipe. I'd certainly say it's inspired by your design...but, in my opinion there are enough differences. In copyright law, there needs to be an approximately 20% variation in a design to avoid an infringement. I'm seeing that 20%.

I think it would have been nice of Adam to at least say that his design was inspired by yours, however.

Chris or Sean might feel otherwise, of course. If that's the case, they'll delete the page and Adam will get blacklisted (which jeopardizes his account, if further infractions are recorded). But, I'm going to let it stand.

No problem Mark, i understand your position well. But it's a matter of principle. He uses other designs, edit them and says it's his own. This was not the first time that this happened. This is'nt fairplay in my eyes. Where is the decency in that?

And now you want to let him get away with this again?
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| January 27, 2014, 3:36 pm
A user called "LEGO Bro" made a MOC that looks very similar to mine. We don't get along well; he's also blocking me on Flickr.

his: http://mocpages.com/moc.php/339328

mine: http://mocpages.com/moc.php/265286

Do you think there is enough variation between the two? Thank you for your time.

-LB Jr.
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| January 27, 2014, 4:11 pm
An interesting topic. While no one wants someone to steal their brilliant idea and take all the credit for it, I think there are a few things to bear in mind.

1. With small creations like this, it's inevitable that some elements will be similar.
2. People will be influenced, consciously or not, by other MOCs they've seen. I know that my building style was initially highly based off Ludgonious, even though I didn't intend to mimic his style.
3. Like it or not, LEGO owns the rights to all brick configurations. Unlike photography or painting, you don't have the copyright to what you create, and people can legally borrow as many of your techniques as they want.

It's always nice to be credited if someone does borrow a technique or two, but it's not mandatory nor always feasible. I know I've racked my brains trying to remember who came up with a NPU that I'd seen years back and only found use for lately, to no avail. Memories are flawed, between coincidence, unconscious mimicry, and pure forgetfulness, there will be very similar builds which both builders believe are their own idea.
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| January 27, 2014, 4:41 pm
Quoting Lego Builders
A user called "LEGO Bro" made a MOC that looks very similar to mine. We don't get along well; he's also blocking me on Flickr.

his: http://mocpages.com/moc.php/339328

mine: http://mocpages.com/moc.php/265286

Do you think there is enough variation between the two? Thank you for your time.

-LB Jr.

I'm no moderator, but I'm going to hazard a guess and say no. I find that it's difficult for people to copy an IRL creation (assuming they don't just steal the pictures). Even if the exterior was a direct copy, technically, the guy could say that the internal structure is different, and there would be no way to say otherwise. Besides, yours had a windscreen and his didn't, so, I think the 20% rule kicks in here...
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| January 27, 2014, 4:51 pm
Quoting LukeClarenceVan The Revanchist
An interesting topic. While no one wants someone to steal their brilliant idea and take all the credit for it, I think there are a few things to bear in mind.

1. With small creations like this, it's inevitable that some elements will be similar.
2. People will be influenced, consciously or not, by other MOCs they've seen. I know that my building style was initially highly based off Ludgonious, even though I didn't intend to mimic his style.
3. Like it or not, LEGO owns the rights to all brick configurations. Unlike photography or painting, you don't have the copyright to what you create, and people can legally borrow as many of your techniques as they want.

It's always nice to be credited if someone does borrow a technique or two, but it's not mandatory nor always feasible. I know I've racked my brains trying to remember who came up with a NPU that I'd seen years back and only found use for lately, to no avail. Memories are flawed, between coincidence, unconscious mimicry, and pure forgetfulness, there will be very similar builds which both builders believe are their own idea.

Copyright is a giant mess that even qualified lawyers can barely piece through. I say, try if you can. And if you see a potential copy, just comment on how similar this and something else is; if it's a copy, they will usually say so. If not, then you were just making a connection, that's all.....

That said, even though LEGO has a nearly infinite amount of different combinations, only so many are ever discovered. Techniques will always be used over and over. I mean, technically, aren't we all copying the first person who decided to try and build something that isn't on the cover of any LEGO box?
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| January 27, 2014, 4:55 pm
Quoting Lego Builders
A user called "LEGO Bro" made a MOC that looks very similar to mine. We don't get along well; he's also blocking me on Flickr.

his: http://mocpages.com/moc.php/339328

mine: http://mocpages.com/moc.php/265286

Do you think there is enough variation between the two? Thank you for your time.

-LB Jr.

Looks to me like the same care just built differently. You're not getting anywhere with this accusation, sorry.
Permalink
| January 27, 2014, 8:56 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Achintya Prasad
I'm no moderator, but I'm going to hazard a guess and say no. I find that it's difficult for people to copy an IRL creation (assuming they don't just steal the pictures). Even if the exterior was a direct copy, technically, the guy could say that the internal structure is different, and there would be no way to say otherwise. Besides, yours had a windscreen and his didn't, so, I think the 20% rule kicks in here...


Agreed. What we're looking for are blatant ripoffs where the creation is identical, and in most cases the member has simply copied another builder's pics and posted them as his/her own.

Permalink
| January 28, 2014, 7:51 am
 Group moderator 
I think what we need to remember here is the difference between blatant theft and creative courtesy.

If you have taken inspiration from someone else's design, that isn't theft, but it is copying. If the originator then sees your design and can tell it's based on his, it's bad form to claim it is 100% yours and absolutely no credit is necessary.

And I completely disagree, the two stretchers are virtually identical, an "inspired by" or "a nod should be given to" is in order in the description for the newer design.

When I find a builder who's work I admire and I want to be able to learn from their techniques, I don't then insult them by claiming I built my stuff without their help, because if I do, they stop helping me.
Permalink
| January 28, 2014, 8:16 am
Andros, thank you very much for your statement. I quite agree with you.
Mr Rutland absolutely refuses to see it, he is acting respectless and has no idea of what he is doing with all the others including me. Never had to use the Help Forum for problem solution. Since he is on Mocpages we still have any trouble. We excused, we let it go and he started again (I know in one case it was Martijn). This isn't what we need here in this great community. Was the same on Emergency Bricks <--Yeah i know, has nothing to do with Mocpages ;). He signed in and there was trouble... It's an endless story
Permalink
| January 28, 2014, 10:44 am
I won't forget to say Thanks to all who take some time for helping here.

Thank you :)
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| January 28, 2014, 10:46 am
Guys I apologize from the sane amongst us that this is wasting your time and winding you up.

I know some of the rest of us really haven't helped matters by regressing a little, but please do something, he's driving us all round the bend, he tried to have me banned from other sites for asking him to be respectful to others.

If it'll help I sure we'd all take our punishment for antagonizing him if thats what the mods feel is required, but please do something. When he was in a flame war I can see the problem with getting involved, but this is certainly one sided, Sven has never started anything with this member, its just plain and simple trolling.
Permalink
| January 28, 2014, 7:27 pm
Mr. Keslo and Mocpage staff along with Mr. Kenny

I hate to get involved but being creating something inspired by some one else should still merit credit.
Permalink
| January 28, 2014, 7:56 pm
Hello I'm back again,

I'm disgusted to see that Adam Rutland is up to his old tricks again plagerizing other people's ideas and work. This is not on.

Also his little friend comrade in arms Thomas Johnston decided to comment and dictate to me that I should give credit for two photos that i took of Tom D rigs which I have in my collection along with two other photos of my own creations. (Nothing was said in my description about the vehicles or who made them, this is wrong and what will be done to these too pests on mocpages?.

Nothing I'm thinking.

Also I do agree with james on this one.

Iam an adult and will not be dictated to by a kid.

Thanks Graeme
Permalink
| January 28, 2014, 8:08 pm
see the issue with Adam is he steals designs from people and wont give credit 90% of the photos creations he has were designed by someone else, what's worse is when you build a brick built unit and he claims you stole his idea and want you to give him credit when he doesn't have an ldd file or pics to prove you stole his idea iv basically given up with him and no longer post photos or ldd file on this site as they create problems we have had the issue with the fire fight he started with MM and really its getting annoying to see all these great builders leave because of a kid like this

Permalink
| January 28, 2014, 9:40 pm
 Group admin 
Quoting Sven Jagdmann
Adam Thelegofan Rutland


Mark and I will be having a discussion with Adam about his behaviour...

If after a few days things have not improved let us know and we'll take further actions. But please, give it at least 2 or 3 days.

~Chris.
Permalink
| January 29, 2014, 3:38 am
 Group moderator 
Quoting James Keatley
Guys I apologize from the sane amongst us that this is wasting your time and winding you up.

I know some of the rest of us really haven't helped matters by regressing a little, but please do something, he's driving us all round the bend, he tried to have me banned from other sites for asking him to be respectful to others.

If it'll help I sure we'd all take our punishment for antagonizing him if thats what the mods feel is required, but please do something. When he was in a flame war I can see the problem with getting involved, but this is certainly one sided, Sven has never started anything with this member, its just plain and simple trolling.


I got involved initially because of the "regression", people taking the law into their own hands. Adam needed reminding about good manners and the rules the rest of us post by, but not through bullying.

The actions of those victimising him here were just as bad (if not worse than) what he was doing.

My view has always been, do not feed the trolls, I know from personal experience it never ends well.

If someone rips you off or emulates you, and a polite request for credit is ignored or refused, then go over their head. Arguing or bullying just makes you look bad, not them.
Permalink
| January 29, 2014, 3:48 am
Sven, you're absolutely right, but you shouldn't worry about this...
I mean have you seen his comments?? No grammar rules, he claims to be 17 and likes nick and disney, JUSTIN BIEBER, and furry art... He's just a m@ron (sorry but it's true...), he's just here to troll people, not to show his lego creations!
No matter what, your creations will always be better than his and everyone knows this, just ignore this guy.
Permalink
| January 29, 2014, 4:00 am
Coming from somebody who's been plagiarized here and on other sites its not cool and most time the plagiarist is either ignorant to what plagiarism is or just plain disillusioned - somebody please resolve this - even those like myself outside the Fire Equipment MOC Community are tired of hearing about it in our activity feed. Please! Please! Please! This needs to end even if its messy!
Permalink
| January 29, 2014, 6:54 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Chris Roach
...are tired of hearing about it in our activity feed. Please! Please! Please! This needs to end even if its messy!


Amen. (in regards to constantly hearing about it). As I stated above, we had a talk with Adam. He's been given his warning. This WILL be the end of it, one way or another.

~Chris.

Permalink
| January 29, 2014, 7:38 am
"The Time-Out Corner" is the peace-keeping group name? :P
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| January 29, 2014, 7:51 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Thomas of Tortuga
"The Time-Out Corner" is the peace-keeping group name? :P


Yeap. If you get sent to the corner for a time out, it's not a good thing.
~C.
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| January 29, 2014, 9:21 am
Quoting Sven Jagdmann
I won't forget to say Thanks to all who take some time for helping here.

Thank you :)

I must say, I agree with you Sven. Over in the Castle building community, we always give credit where credit is due, even though Castle is such a broad topic to build from. If this kid has been a repeat offender, then your anger along with the anger from the Fire Dept. community is well understood.
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| January 29, 2014, 9:32 am
Quoting Chris Phipson

Amen. (in regards to constantly hearing about it). As I stated above, we had a talk with Adam. He's been given his warning. This WILL be the end of it, one way or another.

~Chris.

Hello Chris and Mark. First ab big thank you for your help and intervention. It was long overdue that he got a warning. I hope that he learned his lesson for the future. I accept it and for me it's finshed now. Hope that this happens never again. But if he causes any problem again, i'll take action and let you know it immediately here, only here, not on Adams page.

So, thank you again guys. :)

Sven
Permalink
| January 29, 2014, 10:51 am
@All my friends who helped and supported me: I love ya Guys ;) It's a great feeling to have so many fantastic friends here and in the LFC. A big thank you for all what you've done for me!!
I'll never forget it ;)

Take care my friends and see ya soon here or on EB
Permalink
| January 29, 2014, 10:58 am
 Group admin 
Quoting Sven Jagdmann
Hello Chris and Mark. First ab big thank you for your help and intervention. It was long overdue that he got a warning. I hope that he learned his lesson for the future. I accept it and for me it's finshed now. Hope that this happens never again. But if he causes any problem again, i'll take action and let you know it immediately here, only here, not on Adams page.

So, thank you again guys. :)

Sven


Please do keep us posted. One toe out of line and he's gone at this point.

While I've not personally seen any MOC's that I would consider straight up rip-offs (and obviously there's some debate on that topic alone), we're all certainly in agreement that he's caused enough headaches in the community to be classified as a "trouble-maker." Evidence for that is a bit more difficult to accumulate, and a bit more time-consuming, but we're there to be sure. And, it gives MOCpages grounds to send him packing.

Here's hoping this will bring a little peace to the valley once again. ;)
Permalink
| January 30, 2014, 8:13 am
Quoting Mark Kelso

Please do keep us posted. One toe out of line and he's gone at this point.

While I've not personally seen any MOC's that I would consider straight up rip-offs (and obviously there's some debate on that topic alone), we're all certainly in agreement that he's caused enough headaches in the community to be classified as a "trouble-maker." Evidence for that is a bit more difficult to accumulate, and a bit more time-consuming, but we're there to be sure. And, it gives MOCpages grounds to send him packing.

Here's hoping this will bring a little peace to the valley once again. ;)


Okay, understood :)

I'll keep you posted if something happens again with him. But I hope that there is no need of it in the future.

Thank you again very much Mark :)
Permalink
| January 30, 2014, 10:10 am
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