In this very special episode of Shannon's Poetry Corner, we recklessly charge headlong into controversy. At least, that's the plan.
About this creation
Have you ever answered your door
To find one or two well dressed
Smiling people wanting to tell you
The good news about Buddha?
Or that you need to get right
With Shiva or Vishnu or Krishna?
That the answer to life's questions
Are all contained in the Torah?
That there is but one God
Whom you might even worship already
But He changed His name to Allah
And made Mohammed his right hand man?
Has anyone ever knocked on your door
To tell you about nature worship
Or the wonders of atheism?
That Wicca or Satanism has gotten a bad rap?
Has this ever happened to you?
Only those who consider themselves
The staunchest friends of Jesus
Peddle their religion like poor rubes
In some cosmic pyramid scheme.
If they get just two people to sign up
And those two each get two more
And the new four keep spreading the Word
Eventually all those converted souls
Branching out below their name
In the Bookkeeper's great ledger
Will be a mountain high enough
That they can ascend it to Heaven.
This isn't meant to be a knock on Christianity as a whole (I do have a big problem with all the major organized religions, though Buddhism seems the least wrong to me), but rather that very small percentage of folks who can't handle the idea of anyone having a different belief system than they do, and go out to convert them FOR THEIR OWN GOOD, because without their efforts these poor souls WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO HELL! And the fact remains that every single religious fanatic that's ever knocked on my door has been some sort of Christian.
If you happen to be offended, well, too bad. You could have clicked away from the page. It's not like I came to your house, maybe woke you up on a Saturday morning when you were trying to sleep in, and forced it upon you.
Originally written 3/4/05, all in one unbroken clump and not chopped up into little stanzas as it is here. I don't know if I get more or less than my share of salvation salesmen appearing on my doorstep, but for a while it seemed that I was being actively hounded by these people. Maybe they can smell a godless hellbound sinner. Anyway, as poetry goes it's not great (or even good, let's be honest), but it made me feel better and I've wanted to Lego-ize it for some time.
The conference room scene was a difficult one to conceptualize. Stuck on the phrase "friends of Jesus," I wanted to illustrate people out having a good time with their good buddy Hey-soos. But WWJDFF? (What Would Jesus Do For Fun?)
It is my personal belief that many of the people who most adamantly claim to be his followers would be first in line to crucify him again if he did come back -- I think he'd have some choice things to say about what they've perpetrated in his name, and his dad's. Assuming Jesus wasn't a fictional character, and he returned to Earth today, he'd probably much rather hang out with a pagan like me than spend time with the fundamentalists.
But the scene was supposed to be about their conception of him, not mine. Their Jesus would waste no time casting me right into the lake of fire. I tried to think of something wholesome that they could do that would be recognizable as fun to the average person. I thought about having people in a swimming pool, with their wacky pal Jesus standing on top of the water...
But in the end it just seemed to me that the people I was writing about probably don't picture Jesus ever just relaxing and having a good time with his friends. So our good friend Obi-Wan -- I mean, Mr. Christ -- became a recruiter at a seminar, selling potential converts on the benefits of Amway -- I mean, Christianity.
What I'd like to do -- normally I just slam the door in their faces.
"And don't come back!"
You know where to leave your comments. Let's keep the debate as shrill, unreasoning, and uncivil as possible, please.
I think this is totally right, and people shouldn't do that "Your religion sucks, mine rocks!" thing (I myself am a pagan Atheist), and I also have a comment on the Nate Bush vs. Religious Fanatics debate: All of Nate's arguements have been precise and well thought-out, and Hawkeye has made some points that would make some people have a reason for having this "faith" thing, but here's something for specifically Sho: Your arguements are so weak because of your "faith" and your belief that everybody should have it, which totally debilitates all of your arguements (sorry for filling up your comments with my debating, Shannon).
I would like to mention here that, while the people that knock on doors generally claim to be some sort of Christian, I've never seen any 'mainstream' Christrians (EG Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, etc.) go door to door. It's always been cults similar to Christianity, such as Jehova's Witnesses, Latter Day Saints/Mormons, and people like that. I'm a Christian myself, and must confess I am just as annoyed as you are at people that go door to door and otherwise attempt to mass-market Christianity and cults similar to it.
HOOZAH! I love seeing someone throw out all attempts at "pleasing all" on the 'net and making a bold religious statement. It also doesn't hurt that I happen to share the same paradigms - as such, Im often accused of being an Atheist. Then I explain a bit, leading to me being called an agnostic. Then after still explaining a bit more, people just become highly confused by my beliefs entirely. Meh, to each his own. Excellent build though, Mr Young. Really enjoyed this one.
So far I've only had Muslims and Christians come to my door. But maybe people forgot to take into thought that a part of those religions is to convert people and create followers. "I'm here to preach the Bible, create disciples, the disciple cycle." Quoted from the CHRISTIAN RAP (oxymoron) artist Lecrae
I have lots to say, but rather not say 'em. Personally, I think anyone of the religions is possible, and same with science, I did agree with most of what you said. To be exact, this is almost as contravercial as Global warming. Thankyew for doing this, good day...
I like it
January 31, 2010
I find this very funny, and I would have to agree with that last picture whenever someone tries to convert me. But why a chainsaw? Wouldn't Kelso scare them away quicker?
Shannon, Shannon. Of all the cheap ways to reach 100 'I Like It's, exploiting the narrow minded. AWESOME! It never ceases to amaze me that people hear the word Christianity and completely lose the context of the statement. Go back and READ what this MOC said! There is nothing that was said that is untrue. I have never had a Jew, Buddhist, Satanist, Pagan, Wicken, or Masochist come to my door peddling their religion. Only Christians, which in itself is a blanket term. Not all Christians do this, but those that do are Christian. Is this a statement on the legitimacy of these religions or merely a pointing out of the hypocrisy of the act? Truth is, it's a satirical MOC, which is meant to make you THINK and REASON, perhaps taking a look at something from a DIFFERENT angle for 5 seconds! To all the offended Christians out there: Did Mr. Young once state that God didn't exist? Or Hay-soos? How would you Christians feel if every other day a Satanist was knocking on you door preaching the wonders of narcissism and excess? Or if Phipson was ringing your bell every Tuesday to sell you on the 'soul saving' possibilities of S&M? Wow, I didn't think I was actually going to write this much, but you deserve a little back-up on this Shan. I thought it was poignant and well built. I'm just surprised that nobody was offended by your use of a toilet seat as a Halo! Anyway buddy, I loved this and had a great time reading the comments left by others. Poor Heather, I wonder if she ever got rid of that headache...~H
Should i be insulted :x Those thoughts on Christianity are both generic and false, if your going to try and pock fun, and least try to poke fun with the right information on the religion and what the followers believe.
lol great post. I also read some comments on this and I must say: if I ever happen to go on trial, I'll ask my lawyer to try to get rid of all religios jurors. Seriously, who'd want to be judged by people who have the ability to believe in something withouth evidence?
You know what's really funny, when you are a pretty devout Christian, and you have Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses or other people peddling their religions come knocking on your door on a Saturday, and you tell them politely to get lost, and they tell you to your face that you are not saved because you subscribe to a different doctrine than theirs, even though I never said what flavor of Churchianity I was. I just said, no thanks, and they said, without our book in your hands, you are lost, and then they get nasty.
So don't think that you got singled out 'cause you are undecided or whatever you are. They are out to sell to anyone, like Wal-Mart for the here-after. 'Cause after that first disturbing and upsetting encounter, those two went back to their volcano lair and told all the rest of the congregation my address, and they started showing up every two days at my door. I eventually had to seek legal restraints to stop them.
I like it
April 16, 2009
wow. i have been waiting for someone to cover this topic
i am an atheist and religions are just a sell out business
no offense to any religion at all but many are leaving belief
and satire is close to being correct but if you are religious
go to bed and pray that the wars will end. turn on the news.
pray that you will have the ability to FLY! but no, turning to
a guy in the clouds will not solve any problems for you
for your dog, for your best friend,for a little boy half the
world away. Religion is not a scam, it is not real either.
it is a system of belief that man turned to in his darkest
hour. i respect that people can create their own methods
for hope, but that to me cannot be true, we live and we die
and no one can prove that there is such thing as a heaven.
we hope for a better life because our own lives suck too much
to the point where many build churches, and deep inside they
hope that this is real and they resume their normal lives and
usually do not discuss their religions on social networking
sites like facebook, myspace and mocpages but now one of
the most experienced/known will bring up a controversial
topic that has caused wars for centuries. the building is top
notch and the it could be most talked about thing on this site.
in all a great place to start putting up more mature themes than
You can't say " H. E. Double-Hockey sticks" on MOC pages?!?!?!?!?
My post never showed up,
Anywho, it was a riot, and I'll leave my arguably flippant remark for later, maybe when I send you money for the Chronos Project.
Awesome!! I believe only you(maybe a couple others) could have gotten away with this!! I just look out the window and smile at them instead of actually getting up to go to the door... Also, the playlist might be a good idea to be moved to the top, as it didn't start playing for me until I reached the bottom.
I see thereís been a few comments since Iíve checked this last. bibby, I guess it is kind of funny how long people have been here. A few important questions of mine remain unanswered, but Iím not holding my breath.
Nate, I was thinking the majority was saying that. Often times organized religions have part of their beliefs based around going door-to-door. I apologize for my ignorance on that statement.
Also, have you noticed how long people have been debating on this MoC? Kinda funny, really :P
You know what? I don't care enough to read all of your comments. I'm really sick of getting angry. I know I probably sound like a zealot. I don't care enough to hear you all whine. Oh sure, you may say "We're just stating our opinion!" but That's actually classified as either promoting or complaining :P (At least that's what most people classify it as.). Well, sorry 'bout that pointless statement. I am of a certain faith, but if I had the guts to say what it is then you'd all probably try to draw and quarter me :P . Here's a hint: If I said what it was then most people would say "AGGGGGHHHH!!!! POLYGAMIST!!!!" (Even though we stopped practicing that over one hundred years ago :P .)
Anyway, this whole comment is so pointless, I wonder why your still reading it.
Well, I should get to the point. People should be able to practice their religion, and if your interested in it learn more about it, but if you want none of it, just leave them be and say no.
Right, so this crime scene analogy means that personal testimony of Godís existence (i.e. anecdotes) is not an acceptable form of evidence. If I personally perceive God (or anything that could reasonably be considered evidence of His existence) in some way, then Iíll probably believe in Him, but someone elseís stories about them perceiving God wonít, by themselves, be enough to convince me that He is real. So, in order to believe in Him, I need to see some convincing evidence of His existence, or have faith, but Iíve already explained why the latter option is not sensible.
If I saw a crime take place, but then the evidence of that crime got well cleaned up, that would mean that Iíd have to lose my memory of witnessing it, because me seeing it would be a form of evidence. If that happened, then I couldnít possibly know if the suspect was guilty. Anyways, I cannot just make myself believe in something without evidence, no matter how happy and comforting that belief might be. To convince myself to seriously believe something without any evidence of it being true would mean forfeiting my only way of knowing what is true and what is not, even if doing so is quite filling. If I did that, then I could believe anything, and I wouldnít know what to believe. Iím sure there are things that even you donít believe to be true, so how would you respond if someone asked you to just try believing in one of them? Also, what do you mean by ďexplain spirituallyĒ? How could you explain something spiritually as opposed to non-spiritually? If a ďspiritual explanationĒ is what it will take to convince me, then you could at least try to give me one, even if I wonít understand it. Iím sorry if I didnít think deeply enough about the point you were trying to say, but Iíve been thinking as deeply as I could! Iím afraid Iím going to have to ask you to explain it more clearly again.
I'm mad sleepy right now, so I'll just answer the crime scene part. I said that you saw the thing happen, but the evidence was well cleaned up. My reasoning actually isn't backwards. To have a will to believe is to have the power to believe despite the lack of evidence. Actually TRY beliving without evidence. It's quite filling. To tell you the truth, I can't explain too well why faith is good. It's one of those things that are easier to explain spiritually, but you aren't the kind of guy who understands spiritual explanations. As you may have good points in the arguement, they are mere counters to what I say without actually understanding in depth of what I meant. I don't think you thought deep enough of the point I was trying to say. Well, good night! ~Phong Chang
Thank you for trying to answer my questions, but I still donít think your answers are good enough. You said that you believe in God because you think that youíll go to he11 if you donít. But then what is making you believe in he11? Anyways, if we stopped arguing now, I wouldnít call it my victory, but sort of a mutual failure (which is why I think we should keep talking). You said: ďIt somehow feels to me that the only thing you have against me is my word useĒ. No, I donít have anything against you. Itís no big deal if I correct your word usage, and I understand that itís easier for you to verbally articulate your arguments. You said that I wouldnít need evidence if I had the will to believe, but why should I have the will to believe if thereís no evidence? Because faith is better? Why is faith better? Because it gives me morals, motivation, power, and hope? Well, actually no it doesnít (but if you think it does, then feel free to explain how), and even if it did, itís still not a good way to know whether or not something is true. Is it better to have faith because Iíll go to he11 if I donít? Thereís no evidence that he11 is real, either, so am I supposed to have faith in that, too? Thatís how your reasoning is circular. You have it backwards: if there was evidence, then I would have the will to believe. Also, your crime scene analogy isnít quite right. You asked: ďIf you know for sure that the suspect is guilty, but he left no evidence of the crime, what would you do?Ē. Wait a minute, how could I possibly know for sure that the suspect is guilty if there wasnít any evidence? Surely I couldnít just have faith that the suspect is guilty. I would never say that ďI watched a guy kill someone, but there's no evidenceĒ, because me watching him kill someone is, itself, evidence (although only anecdotal). Also, you said that God lacks evidence of not existing, but that seems kind of like a weird thing to say. If there actually was evidence of Him not existing, what would it look like? Wouldnít every unanswered prayer count? Remember when I asked Him to appear in my room, and He didnít? If thatís not evidence of Him not existing, then I donít know what is. However, this evidence still isnít enough to completely convince me beyond a doubt that God isnít real (although it does push me in that direction), and if youíre saying that a God exists outside of nature which is undetectable to humans, then thatís an unfalsifiable claim, about which I will remain undecided. You said: ďIt's all about faith. Why can't you get that point? I have said over and over that I believe because of faith, yet you find the motivation illogical. I understand why you don't believe, so understand why I doĒ. But I understand that you believe because you have faith. What Iím asking is, why do you have faith?
Yet again you point out my faults in grammar. Evidence, proof; it's all the same to me. My point will stay despite the word choice. You said you don't believe in God because he lacks "evidence" of existing, but I say that he lacks evidence of not existing. There is no evidence that he exists or doesn't exist. It's all about faith. Why can't you get that point? I have said over and over that I believe because of faith, yet you find the motivation illogical. I understand why you don't believe, so understand why I do. Also: I WILL NOT CHANGE SIDES! I know there are more than 2, but I'll stay with mine.
With faith you can benefit yourelf in morals and go to Heaven. Why not believe? You just lack the will power to have faith. You act like a crime scene investigator. You have to have evidence to say the suspect is guilty. If you know for sure that the suspect is guilty, but he left no evidence of the crime, what would you do? Despite the law, you should still call him guilty. Dramatization: "Oh, I watched a guy kill someone, but there's no evidence. I guess he's innocent!" You shouldn't need evidence! With God the same concept applies. "Oh, you have no EVIDENCE that God exists." No duh! You shouldn't need evidence! Faith is a great trait. It gives you motivation, power, and hope.
You did point out that I mis-used the words "quantum physics"...big deal. I guess I forgot the right name. LOL. You say my attempts were all fails, sure they were, but so were yours. Do not call it your victory; it's nobody's. You never changed me; I never changed you. It's also been adressed that I speak better than I type, so forget my mis-use of words. You can still see my point. It somehow feels to me that the only thing you have against me is my word use. Your other pieces of evidence are simply the things that can be manipulated for 2 sides. You can use them on me, but I can use them on you. We get nowhere because you lack faith. You wouldn't need evidence if you had the will to believe.
Reason for faith is the fact that not believing in God will get you sent to he11.
Forgive my bruntness. If you believe in God, you get to go to Heaven; if not, it's he11. It's so simple that it sounds so narrowminded, but it's not!
You said that itís difficult for your side to ďwin due to lack of proofĒ. Well, obviously! Maybe you should think about changing sides (and remember, there are more sides than ďGod is realĒ and ďGod is not realĒ). You also said: ďYou seem to need proof to believe in God, while I have to use faithĒ. No, thatís not true. In order to believe that God is real, I only need some evidence that He is, not necessarily proof. Believing things without evidence (i.e. with faith) doesnít make sense, and you havenít explained why it would. You also said: ďLet me ask you this; Is there any proof that God doesn't exist?Ē. No, but like I said already, there doesnít have to be for me to not believe in Him. Because you are the one making the positive claim, the burden of proof is on you to show that God is real, not on me to show that He isnít. You also said: ďI can't change your opinion, but you can't change mineĒ. That is also not true (unless youíre admitting defeat). I would be happy to change my opinion if there was at least a bit of evidence that God is real. Iím still waiting for you guys to show me it. You also said: ďI'm not sure if you are interested in the whole multi-verse thing, for it is quantum physics, so you might not have truly got my point about using it, but it doesn't matterĒ. Well of course it doesnít matter if you havenít explained how itís relevant. By the way, the multiverse theory is not a part of quantum physics, which is the study of things that are on a subatomic scale, but a part of physical cosmology. Anyways, itís fine if you want to stop arguing, but I will consider your attempts to convince me a series of spectacular failures. Weíre only going nowhere with this because you have yet to give me reasonable answers to my questions.
The logic I used is only flawed based on perspective. It can go 2 ways. The light thing was merely an example I used to better explain my logic. It was completely random. I also said that it is difficult for my side to win due to lack of proof. You seem to need proof to believe in God, while I have to use faith. It is so easy for people to shun an idea if it lacks proof, while believing in it relying only on raw faith is much more difficult. Let me ask you this; Is there any proof that God doesn't exist? This conversation really can't be determined, so it will have to stay a draw. This conversation go's 2 ways based on belief. I can't change your opinion, but you can't change mine. Neither you nor me put up a better argument. Our opinions are clashing, but none will win. The hole I left is a hole that is a dependent variable which can be manipulated by beliefs. I used the multi-verse theory knowing that you would turn it against me. You didn't surprise me with the counter, though that was not your intent. I can just use the same thing to counter your counter, and so on. Neither of us can win or lose this.
I'm tired of arguing. I'd rather use MOCpages for what it is used for, LEGO. Let's just agree to disagree, O.K. Please don't think I'm giving up. I'm not quitting to give up, I'm quitting as my choice to stop arguing about this. We're getting nowhere with this. Nobody can win or lose this. PS: I'm not sure if you are interested in the whole multi-verse thing, for it is quantum physics, so you might not have truly got my point about using it, but it doesn't matter. (Lol, I'm only 15 and already understand quantum physics! I'm hoping to study it in school, so there's actually something fun to study!)
You found the hole! Remember, I can still use that against you. By putting the hole in I was trying to acknowledge the fact that this conversation will go on and on, as I told you on your MOC. I guess you are right about calling it using logic instead of science and God instead of Jesus, but do not use my faults in grammar to your advantage; it is not the point. God and Jesus fall into the same religion and both mean the same thing in the argument anyway; using a different name will not change my point or the argument. I knew you would say my logic flawed, but the light thing was just an example of what you can possibly discover by using logic. That's why I said it. As I said, I'm better at speaking than I am at typing. Now I have to go to freaking school, so I'll have continue later.
You said: ďThere is no proof of many things, but that doesn't mean they aren't real. Take for instance, there is no proof that nothing is faster than light. We only believe so because mankind hasn't found it yet. That doesn't mean nothing is fasterĒ. Right, which is why in this situation, it doesnít makes sense to believe that there is something that can go faster than light, nor does it make sense to believe that there is nothing that can. If you apply the analogy, youíre saying that you do believe that something can go faster than light just because itís possible, even though there is absolutely no evidence for it. You also said: ďIf you think of a wheel, the inside of a wheel is always slower than the outside, so say the inside spun at light speed. That forces the outside to move fasterĒ. Well great if it moves faster than light, but what does this have to do with what we were talking about? You also said: ďI just made proof of a speed faster than light, so I can use science to prove the existance of JesusĒ. You used logic (which is probably flawed, by the way), not science, to do that thing with the wheel going faster than light. There is a difference. So, if you can use science and/or logic to prove the existence of Jesus, then please go ahead and do so (although I thought we were talking about God, not Jesus). You also said: ďThink of how the multiverse is actually tons of alternate parallel universes or dimensions. Each parallel universe is different so anything and everything is possibleĒ. Okay, is this even true? How do you know about the large-scale structure of the universe? You also said: ďBecause anything is possible, it means God is realĒ. No, actually it doesnít. Even if it were possible for God to exist (which even I think is true to some degree), it doesnít mean He does. If anything is possible, then itís also possible for God to not exist. You also said: ďIn science, there are always the variables that stay constant no matter whatĒ. If by ďvariablesĒ you mean scientific facts, then thatís simply not true. Our scientific body of knowledge is always subject to change. If somebody finds evidence for the existence of God, then it will be revised to include Him.
This is part 1 of the 3 comments I want you to read:
I used to be less of a great arguer than I am now. I tend to do better in actual speach. Putting what I say in print is hard for me. Anyway, my argument with you left off with me telling you about faith, right? That's one reason this is a difficult argument for my side. You see, it is so easy for one to actually doubt Christ due to the fact that there is no proof of him. There is no proof of many things, but that doesn't mean they aren't real. Take for instance, there is no proof that nothing is faster than light. We only believe so because mankind hasn't found it yet. That doesn't mean nothing is faster. Just because you have no proof of Jesus doesn't mean he isn't real... Continue on to part 2 of the comment:
Part 2 of long comment:
It is easy for you to doubt Jesus because he lacks scientific proof--Well, at least he did... If you think of a wheel, the inside of a wheel is always slower than the outside, so say the inside spun at light speed. That forces the outside to move faster. Dont try saying that it would implode, because we just haven't found a material that can withstand such great speeds. What does that have to do with our arguement? I just made proof of a speed faster than light, so I can use science to prove the existance of Jesus. My friend Etha Deso Came up with the following idea... Next Comment:
Part 3 of long comment:
Think of how the multiverse is actually tons of alternate parallel universes or dimensions. Each parallel universe is different so anything and everything is possible. In one parallel universe a rhino can, will, or has just farted on a 4 year old dragonfly while an elephant sneezed! Because anything is possible, it means God is real! You might go along saying there is something stronger than God, but every situation has it's gray areas, and something being stronger than God is an occasion that can't happen. You may call it hipocracy, but it is something easier to believe than to explain. In science, there are always the variables that stay constant no matter what. God being strongest is one of them, because nothing is stronger than God.
Nate: I just wanted to post a comment like that for the longest time, and I felt like the time had come. LOL! I still stick to what I believe: Jesus is real, and faith is the only answer I need, but I just felt a bit joky. Trust me Nate, I can put up great arguements, though I speak better than I write. My logic and intellect is very high, but my jokes are just plain wrog! LOL!
I don't have a problem with any religion only the people who preach them, just like politcians they alter the meaning of the text to meet their own agenda, i'm sure GOD just meant for all of us to get along.
I honestly am getting a headache from the rambling of these debaters. I can't quite tell why all of these guys decided to argue about their beliefs, ideas, religion, ect. on this page. I came to say that the build suits your poem excellently. I'm getting a little annoyed by my headache now...I'm gonna eat something.
If youíre going to try to disown Mormons, then some definitions need to be established. Merriam-Webster, which should be a trustworthy source, defines a cult as a ďsystem of religious beliefs and ritualĒ or ďits body of adherentsĒ, and a Christian as ďone who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus ChristĒ. Those both apply equally to Mormons and non-Mormon Christians. Saying that Mormons are not Christians is a logical fallacy (i.e. no true Scotsman).
i said that about mormons. they're more like a cult. one of their symbols is a freaking pentagram! not very holy to me shannon: you missed the point about the evil thing. apparently you havent read enough.
If you relentless debaters want a good book on Christianity, read "The Jesus Mysteries," by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. I'm not going to get drawn into this endless back and forth, but I will say that I've read enough of the Bible to convince me that Christianity is not the religion for me. It's bad for your self-esteem. You're an evil sinner just by being born and there's nothing you can do about it? If a parent tells a kid their whole life that they're horrible and rotten and nothing they ever do can change that, how do you think the kids's going to end up? Christianity as practiced by the majority has warped our culture just as the parent would warp that child. There has to be a better way. And whoever said Mormons aren't Christians, they worship Jesus -- therefore they're Christians.
Hey Nate,you really should read the Shack by William Young.I struggled with this idea of God.If He was so kind and loving, why would He let His people suffer? Well,I think the book,The Shack explains alot about what the Bible wants to say.Peace~LL
God is not some religion.he didn't ask for us to suffer pains and he created the world so we could enjoy it.I don't like it when people taunt christianity and say its fake.cause its not,its real and so are we,I am a christan,and I'm proud of it.
LegoLord: I have no idea why Internet Explorer wonít display the webpage. Iím using Safari, and I type my comments in Appleworks so I can spellcheck them, and then copy and paste them into MOCpages. Anyways, the book of James seems to be saying that if you can endure temptations, you will be rewarded in heaven (please correct me if Iím wrong about this). So basically, youíre saying that life is a test, like Sho has been saying. This doesnít really resolve the problem of evil, because any God who would administer such a cruel test for no reason (is there a reason?) is not a benevolent one. Sho Fukamachi: Yes, it would be too easy if God just put everyone in a situation in which we had to choose to have faith. Iím asking why it needs to be difficult in the first place. Why do things like God altering our minds, special situations, and even evidence have to be considered cheating? By the way, EPH 2:8 seems to be saying that faith is a gift from God. When I asked how you know what religion to put your faith in (since there is no evidence for any of them, theyíre all equally improbable), youíve said that itís because you believe what the bible says. But thatís a circular argument. The question is why do you believe what the bible says as opposed to the Koran, for example? Also, when I asked why God sends non-believers to heck, you said itís because he sends believers to heaven. I know that, but it still doesnít answer my question of why send anyone to such a bad place when you can send them to heaven. Even though doing so would defeat the purpose of the test, I donít see what that purpose is. As for the thing about the uneducated peasant, someone named John is supposed to have written the verse with the 200 million horsemen. Obviously, this John person was educated enough to write, but the fact that he could write and imagined ridiculously huge armies for his time still doesnít mean that the bible was written with divine guidance.
Nate: Again, you missed my point. By putting us in a situation where we would only have faith, the test would be too easy. We are supposed to believe w/o needing any proof, alternation of our minds, or a special situation. We are supposed to believe. You asked why we don't belive everything: Well because we believe the Bible when it says that God is the only god, and his son, Jesus died on the cross for our sins. (showing careness.) Nate, I think the situation is not that God doesn't care about you, but how you don't care about God. You were baically suggesting cheating on the test. You ask why God sends non-believers to heck, well he sends the believers to Heaven. You said any uneducated peasent could have wrote stories and predictions, well I say: How could a uneducated peasent even write?
Okay Nate: First of all,I'd like to ask how you got a comment so humungous,whenever I try to write something that long,it says internet explorer cannot display the webpage.Oh well,on to buisness!You want to know why Goddoesn't seem to be around when we are going through pain and suffering.Well,have you read the book "The Shack" by William Young? It is a really good book that desribes what the Bible says about God and suffering.I would VERY much encourage you to read it.Second,for a Bible example: Read James 1:3 and following,it helps explain why God allows suffering.Okay,now I've said what I'm gonna say,it's time for rootbeer~LL
Hey, Iím not feeling any tension! Everythingís cool. Anyways, I think the main reason for our disagreement is the issue of faith. Why do you think itís a good thing to have faith in something? If you can and do believe something that has been shown to be impossible (God is omnipotent, for example), then you can believe absolutely anything. So, why do you have faith in this whole God-is-testing-us thing as opposed to having faith that Allah is the one true god and Muhammad is his messenger? Without any objective standard of evidence, there is no way to tell which one is correct. Right now, there is no evidence for either of them. Anyways, asking God to appear in my room is not the same thing as mocking Him. It shouldnít have been too much trouble for Him to just show up and say hello or something so I know Heís real. Also, itís not like saying that the person who jumped in front of a bullet for me doesnít care about me, because even if that person saved my life, they didnít threaten to send me to heck for not believing something. Now Iím going to quote you a bit. You said: ďit gives you meaning and fills the emptinessĒ. What is this emptiness you are talking about? You said: ďSeeing isn't always believingĒ. Right, but if I am supposed to believe something, it helps if I can see it. You said: ďYou asked me why God doesn't alter our minds: It's because we wouldn't really be deciding to belive in him by ourselves; we would be forcedĒ. No, not really. What would be the difference between someone who decided to have faith on their own and someone who has faith because God made it that way? Didnít people who decide to have faith make that decision because God wanted them to anyway, since He determines the outcome of everything? If God can do anything, then He can put us in a situation in which the only possible outcome would be for us to decide to have faith in Him by ourselves. I donít think that would be forcing us. The fact that He doesnít (and the fact that He didnít appear in my room) shows me that either He is not able to (in which case He is not omnipotent) or that He doesnít care whether or not we go to heck. I just donít get the point of this whole ďtestĒ thing. Why not just send everyone to heaven in the first place?
Nate: Do not try telling me that God doesn't care about us! He cares so much that he sent his son to die on the Cross for our sins! After that, you still find a way to mock him?! It's like saying that the person who jumped in front of a bullet for you didn't care about you! After all that you've said about him, he still forgives you! Remote tribes might be treated like baby. A baby that dies even without being introduced to God goes to Heaven because they never had a chance to understand.
You asked me why he doesn't appear: That's because it wouldn't be testing true faith. It saddens me to see how a human can even have the nerve to mock him. No offense to you, but you crossed the line with me by what you said. Remember: Seeing isn't always believing.
Nate: You COMPLETELY missed the point of what I said! I said that life is a test made by God, and part is having faith! Faith is something that we gain by our decison! You asked me why God doesn't alter our minds: It's because we wouldn't really be deciding to belive in him by ourselves; we would be forced. Therefore, we wouldn't be truely having faith! Believing is not as hard as you make it sound! Doubting God will get you to heck, while believing in him will get you to Heaven. You can still live a normal life and be Christain at the same time.
It doesn't make your life any less fun, infact it gives you meaning and fills the emptiness. I'm not trying force you to be Christain, but I am trying to help you. It's still your decison.
Letís look at the big picture here: there is an omnipotent God that created the whole universe, including humans. If those humans do not believe in this God, then He will make them go to heck to suffer forever. However, He does not make Himself readily apparent to all of those humans (myself included), instead expecting them to trust in His existence and have faith without any evidence to support it (which is something I donít like doing, because I can't just believe in things that donít make sense to me). I canít be afraid of heck if I donít even think itís real. So, my question is this: if God wants me to believe in Him, then why doesnít He just alter my brain in some way so that I do, or at least present Himself to me? And what about all of the people who could not have possibly heard about Him from Christians like you (remote tribes in the Amazon, for example)? It seems like He wants me and all those other people to go to heck. If this God truly cares about His humans and doesnít want them to go to heck, then I challenge Him to appear in front of me right here in my room at the very instant that I post this comment! Him doing so would count as evidence for His existence, which is something you havenít shown me. Also, if my question about God creating a boulder so heavy that not even He could lift it seems impossible for us humans to answer, then how can you still claim to know that God is omnipotent?
Nate Bush: there is nothing God can't do, but your question seems impossible to give a good answer for us humans, but to God there is no impossible. A bit off subject: Just like one of my favorite animes says: "Go beyond impossible and toss reason to the curb!" Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is awesome!
As a note to Shannon: These Christians coming to your door are just trying to save you from an eternity in h3ll. Think of it as a sign from God that you should give him a chance.
Insult me if you will, I wont force this upon you, but I'm trying to help.
Nate Bush: You shouldn't even need proof that God exists. There's a little thing called "Faith" that us Christians have. Life is supposed to be a test made by God, and part of the test is having enough faith to believe in him. You may think it's cliche, but it's the truth. Don't throw your soul into h3ll(mocpages won't allow me to spell it) just because you need proof in order to believe. There are some things that you just need to trust in to know they exist, and God is one of them. Give Christianity a chance to change you. Don't tell yourself that you can't have faith; you can if you try. You read the Bible already; now live by it. It's worth far more than the alternative.
LegoLord: I agree with you that disproving the existence of God is as impossible as proving it. There is a big difference between believing that God does not exist, and not believing that He does exist. I fit into the latter category, and do not require that Godís existence be disproven in order to not believe in it. I think the existence of a God is possible (although not likely), but I havenít seen any evidence for it, so I wonít believe it until I do. Sho Fukamachi: I feel like I didnít adequately respond to your Rapture Ready thing in my last comment, so let me try again: REV 9:16 talks about an army of 200 million horsemen. There werenít that many people on the planet at the time of writing, so Rapture Ready says that because itís now possible to make an army like that, the bible must be true. Thatís kind of an obvious prediction, though. Any uneducated peasant during the middle ages could have dreamt up an unimaginably huge army and wrote predictions about it. The fact that such a prediction was made in the bible does not mean that it was written with divine guidance.
(TO NATE)God,in retrospect,CAN'T be proven at all with scientific laws and the known laws of nature.But,if you think about,disproving God is just as impossible as proving Him.I can't decide for you that God exists.I can't force it on you,nor do I intend to.But,I know one thing.Believing in God gives me a purpose,a meaning.I hope you will listen and think about it.Oh yeah,I don't know what Sho is talkin' about about with this Rapture mess,God will comes when He comes,if ya know what I mean;-)~LL
Sho Fukamachi: Why should I believe what raptureready.com says? It looks like theyíre getting their information from the bible, so weíve just gone in a circle. LegoLord: I never said God is a religion, I said Christianity is a religion. If Iím going to live my life for God (or in Him, whatever that means), I must first be convinced that He even exists at all. In order for that to happen, somebody has to come up with good answers to the logical inconsistencies of belief in a deity, such as the problem of evil and the omnipotence paradox. Can God create a boulder so heavy that not even He can lift it?
I have also been reading the King James version. It says so on that website (click ďAbout the KJV BibleĒ at the bottom of the page). So, could you please cite verses? I did find the Wormwood verse starting at REV 8:10, but no mention of the year 2012 (or any other year). In fact, itís written in the past tense for some reason.
Well said Legolord! I'm trying to live my life better so I can be ready for the Rapture
In reply to Nate: I found this quote on http://www.rapture ready.com/rap16.html (really has no space between rapture and ready)Nearing Midnight article: "During the latter part of the tribulation, an Oriental army of some 200 million strong will move into the Middle East, crossing over the dried-up Euphrates River. This army, guided by four demonic angels, will kill one-third of mankind." I may have made a slight miscalculation on where to find these things.
Well said Legolord! I'm trying to live my life better so I can be ready for the Rapture
In reply to Nate: I found this quote on rapture ready.com: nearing midnight: "During the latter part of the tribulation, an Oriental army of some 200 million strong will move into the Middle East, crossing over the dried-up Euphrates River. This army, guided by four demonic angels, will kill one-third of mankind." I may have made a slight miscalculation on where to find these things.
(This is in reply to Nate and all the others who disbelieve)God AIN'T a religeon.I don't think He ever intended for their to be a bunch of whinny babies arguing over senseless things,and trying to force their belivf on others.If anything,God wants us to be unified and serve each other.What God IS though,is a relationship.If you live your life for Him,or better yet,IN Him,you'll know what I'm trying to say.Don't worry,this won't be my last comment.~Robert M
Iím not relying on scientists to tell me what the bible says. I'm looking up the verses myself at quod.lib.umich.edu /k/kjv/browse.html (without the space after "edu", which is only there because MOCpages doesnít allow long unbroken strings of characters in comments). I looked all through Revelation, and I didnít find anything about the price of a precious black goo, or about Red China attacking (and I donít think China is so high-strung that it would start a war just because it lost the Olympics, although thatís not impossible). I would appreciate it if you would provide me with specific verses so that I donít have to go through that site looking for them. Also, could you cite a source for this discovery of Planet X?
To Blade B: Axxen and Hawkeye aren't the only ones defending Christianity. Count me in as well as some of the others. BTW: Nate Bush: The stories in the Bible do fit together. You rely too much on what closeminded scientists are saying while trying to depict it. Thank you to Hawkeye, Blade B, LegoLord, JD Luse, Axxen Fett, and all the others with the courage to support Christianity. My bamboo shadehat's off to you!
Part 1 of my comment to Nate Bush:
To Nate who said the stories in the Bible don't fit: I noticed something in the Bible to possibly prove you wrong: I'm not sure where this is in Revelations, but my parents told me a while back...The end of the world occurs when the world becomes bad enough. Now bear with me. The world is already becoming pretty corrupt with drugs and all these things, right.
During the time of the end, it says something about a precious black goo's prices rising. (Or at least I think that's how it's stated.)
Have you noticed the rising gas/oil prices?!
Part 2 of my comment to Nate Bush:
Revelations also states something about Red China attacking.(no racism intended) Now think about it: The 2008 Olympics are a big thing to the Chinese because they believe it to be lucky. Now think of the reaction of someone being beaten during such a big event. It would stirr up some tension. So supppose China loses during this event and gets angry; that may lead to an attack.
Part 3 of my comment to Nate Bush:
There is also a giant meteor/astroid called Wyrmwood that is supposed to hit Earth during the end of the world. Think about this: Scientists have found what seems to be a new planet orbiting past Pluto in an unusual pattern. Scientist named this "Planet X," and they said it seems to be on a collision course with Earth, hitting us in 2012!
All of these events happen around the same time period and fit together perfectly with the Prophecy of Revelations! (I'm not saying for sure that China is gonna lose the Olympics, or that Planey X is Wyrmwood and is gonna collide with Earth soon, or that the end of the world is about too happen soon, but it seems to fit.)
I'm the same as JD here, I am a Christain too. Though I do agree with your concept, I will have to back up my religion. However, I can see both sides: I can see how the missionaries feel that they're doing people a favor, and I can see how the ones being asked to convert can be annoyed by people telling them that they have a better religion. The reason it's mostly Christains who go around trying convert, is because Christianity is one of the most popular religions. (Mormons and Ladder Day Saints don't count as Christains, even though they call them seves Christains.) Don't take this the wrong way, but I think you should give Christianity a try. You don't have to, but it's just what I believe is right.
Agreed LL. Though I am a Christian, believe in Jesus Christ as my savior, and would defend that fact with my life, I think that discussions as the ones being held here are meant to be posted on blogs. That's why there are blogs. So I think I'll back out of this saying that I agree with Hawkeye.
Okay Shan,this is getting outa hand.I belive in Jesus,and for Hawkeye whose says I don't defend my beliefs,well,if you ever see my Facebook page,you'll see what I'm talkin' about.I'm not gonna go into a finaminical rant about religeon ,I've had WAY to much rootbeer for logical thinkin'!~Roberta
I would not have used those two stories to try to disprove Jesusís resurrection, because itís not up to me to disprove the claim that he was risen from the dead, itís up to you to prove it (by this I mean provide some evidence for it). The facts that the ancient Romans didnít make up the story about two women finding his tomb empty and that nobody smuggled his body out of it do not mean that Jesus came back from the dead. You still havenít told me how you know he was resurrected in the first place.
Another theory is that the Roman government made up Jesus's resurection. If they did, it's the one that's told in the Bible, with Mary Magedeline and 2 other women discovering that he had ascended to Heaven. This story would have embarassed the Roman government and militia, since women were considered lower class. For them to discover this before the trained Roman soldiers [the guard's commanding officer wouldn't put 2 lazy guards on the job since it was his job to protect the tomb] would be reason for citizens to ridicule their military. So, I rest my case.
I'm not sure what the exact number is, Nate. But almost every historian that studies that era points to the fact that he did exist. There are two different stories that non-Christians use that they think disproves Jesus's resurection. The first is that the 2 Roman guards helped the discliples smuggle his body out. They would never do this however, because of the fact that they would be executed. Jesus's body was their "prisoner". Read Acts 16:27, the jailer there would of been executed, so he was about to kill himself to save his superiors the trouble. In my mind, that theory is disproved.
When I wrote that I donít think Jesus existed, I didnít mean to say that I think he didnít exist. So, if around 95% of professional historians say that Jesus was a real person who died on a cross, then I will trust them.
i was reading through these reviews and was surprised to find so much controversey, im 13 and i'm saved (im a christian if u dont know what saved means). axxen fett did a great job of explaining some verses from the bible and hes absolutely correct! but anyway, back to the actual moc, i see what you mean by "pyramid scheme", but any ways decent moc.... =/
I'm almost certain you know where I'm going...Onto what you said about Jesus: I find it odd that you don't think that Jesus really did live on Earth for 30 years. Although, it does make some sense that you would come to that conclusion, because you seem to forming your own opinions about this topic. However, I think you should do some research on this one. Many ancient manuscripts from the current Middle East and Asia talk specifically about Him. I would also venture to say that around 95% of professers of today would say that he did live and did die on the cross. That's my evidence for Jesus that he did die on the cross, my next post(s) will be about his resurection and proof of it. TTYL
Nate: we were not discussing divine intervention, we were discussing another subject. With divine intervention, I am right. Without it, you are. So I'm moving on to another issue that will lead to the subject of divine intervention, here's what I mean: every Christian who I know was first convinced that Jesus Christ was crucified for our sins on the cross, and thus after believed in his other teachings. Without first realizing that He did die for his/her sins, Jesus's other teachings almost undoubtedly sounded absurd to this former non-Christian.
Hawkeye: Wait a minute, how do you know our argument canít be resolved? All that needs to happen for me to believe in divine intervention like you do is for me to see some convincing evidence that it is real. The only situation in which we could ďargue forever but never gain an inchĒ is one in which there is no such evidence (or one in which no one shows it to me). Instead of just talking about something else, you should tell me why you believe in divine intervention, and if you have a good enough reason, Iíll believe in it too. However, Iíll go with the Jesus thing anyway: Iím not sure if Jesus was a real person who died on a wooden cross (Iím assuming you mean the Jesus Christ that Christians worship). Itís possible that Jesus was a real person, but itís also possible that he was always just a mythological figure like Hercules or Achilles. So, the short answer is no. Alex Eylar: See what I said to Hawkeye. I donít think this discussion is a ďfruitless ventureĒ because I always try to be open to being convinced of something. Also, I did look at the Lego before commenting. I think everyone who commented here did.
I like it
Heather Lego Girl
July 22, 2008
Wow Shannon. I am so tired now from reading all of the back and forth that I hardly have the energy to tell you how I thought that you executed this build splendidly. I really liked the water cooler. Wow. Now that seems so empty-minded and hollow. I've got to go and contemplate my eternal soul now. Has anyone got an aspirin?
OK, Nate. Our arguement cannot be resolved because of one issue: I believe in divine intervention and you don't. We could argue forever but never gain an inch. Soooo, I've decided to start on another issue: the death of Jesus...let me ask the starting question: do you believe Jesus was a real person, and do you believe he died on a wooden cross?
Come on, people. This whole debate is a fruitless venture. Nobody's gonna convince nobody. How about we put aside all the "Bible says this," "Science says that," Word of God, logic and reason, cud-chewing business and look at some Lego before we burn our bridges and spark a MOCpages holy war.
Me and other people who are ďshunningĒ Christianity are actually not in the majority, especially not here in America. As for the cud chewing thing, what you are probably thinking of is a cecotrope. Hereís how it works (copied and pasted from Wikipedia): ďFood passes through the esophagus, stomach, small intestine, where nutrients are absorbed, and then into the colon. Through reverse peristalsis, the food is forced back into the cecum where it is broken down into simple sugars (i.e. monosaccharides) by bacterial fermentation. The cecotrope then passes through the colon, the anus, and is consumed by the animal. The process occurs 4 to 8 hours after eatingĒ. It also mentions that the process is similar to chewing a cud, but they are definitely not the same thing. Scientists are not immortal, by the way.
Yeah, I probably shouldnít have brought those verses up without doing a bit more research. I could post more of them, but that would be a waste of time since I already made my point, which is that even if the bible doesnít contradict itself (and I didnít say it doesnít), it still contradicts reality. Hawkeye: when I said that religion has harmful effects on society, I did not mean to imply that I think we should therefore oppress Christians. There are better ways of dealing with it (discussions like this, for example). A few more things: you said: ďAny time when you start to question your faith [doesn't take something drastic to make you], it is God asking you if you really believe in what you say you doĒ. I think that when I question my faith, itís me, not God, asking myself that. How do you know itís God? You also said: ďIf you stop believing after He tests you, it's obvious you never had the faith in the beginingĒ. Thatís not true, for me at least. It is very possible to believe religious doctrines, and then later not believe them. Before I gave it any thought, I did believe them, and you canít tell me I didnít because I was the one believing them. You also said that I was: ďusing Christianity as an insurance policy just in case Heaven does existĒ. That also isnít true for me. It was not Pascalís Wager that made me religious when I was a kid, it was the indoctrination I received when I was small and impressionable. Crimso Giger: I agree with most of what you said, and it wasn't hard to understand.
Church is a coporation. They exist solely to make money, turn profit, and replicate. You know what they say, Life feeds on life, feeds on life, feeds on life, feeds on life....this is necessary. This is necessary. Life feeds on life feeds on life...
A few more notes: Sorry I didn't respond earlier to your July 10th review, but I've been busy beyond belief. Also, I have no idea how Crimso got his long review on, and Nate also. Axxen: this is the definition of religion on Dictionary.com: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe"...I think Christianity would fall under that category. I know Christianity is the only true religion that will give you passage to Heaven [no comments Nate :D], but the bible does explain how the Universe was made and the meaning of it *to glorify him*...soooo, I'm going to agree with Nate on that one.
@ Nate's review on July 10: 1) That first statement about settlers is kinda off-point, you know what I mean. 2) This statement made me believe you thought of Christians as lower-class, or inferior: *phrasing it differently to make sense, it's in your review on June 27* "Religion [mostly meaning Christianity] has harmful effects on society"...3) Any time when you start to question your faith [doesn't take something drastic to make you], it is God asking you if you really believe in what you say you do. If you stop believing after He tests you, it's obvious you never had the faith in the begining. You Nate [and many others] were using Christianity as an insurance policy just in case Heaven does exist.
OK Nate , I try then... My point of view is a bit complicated but nervermind. So...
For me, Religion and God are two different thing, not obviously linked to each other. We don't know (at least I don't know) if God exist.
Religions pretends to know everything about God, but in fact we know nothing at all. For me, if he exists, he's a kind of a mighty "architect".
Earth and humanity is only a very very small part of his creation (the universe) - so, a powerful creator like he might be, in my opinion, have a lot of other thing to do than look at us. He may have created millions of planets, millions of different creatures. I'm not fond of the religions because they all says that humanity and earth are the treasure of the universe, the masterpiece in god's creation. In a way, it's saying that God is a not so great ! How can he be satisfied by such a small planet, where lives poor creatures like us ? Maybe, like the religion, that he "love" us. But maybe not. Maybe for him, we're only a creation within millions, not particulary good.
Imagine if you have created millions of living minifigs : would you care of what they'll do indivually ? Would you care of a little planet when you've created a HUGE and MARVELLOUS thing like the universe ? Earth is like a 1x1 plate in a huge MOC (let's say, "The invisible Hand" lol), it's almost nothing.
Religions are only systems, like others (economical or political) , to organize the humanity. Religions claims that they know all the secrets of life, but they don't. I believe more in science (even if science have also produce some horrible things).
So I disagree with people who have a religion because they think they know everything, but nobody knows nothing ! Even the scientifics ...
Sorry for the explanations, I hope you'll understand ... :)
A last word : i DON'T want to 'hurt anybody. Everyone has the right in believe in what they want. I don't wan't to hurt Christians or others religions. I just prefer, personnaly, use my brain to try to have a rationnal point of view. Life is a mystery. Universe is a mystery. God, as pictured by the religion, is an answer to the great questions we have all.
But it's not the only possible answer... Religion are maybe right, it's a possibility.
But there's millions of possibilities...
I don't want to find the answers in ONE book. I prefer to stay humble and say that I know nothing.
Axxen Fett: You don't have to apologize about anything, since you didn't seem that uncivil (to me, at least). That verse is significant because hares obviously do not chew a cud, so if the bible says they do, it is wrong about at least one thing, and thus is not inerrant. Crimso Giger: Don't delete it! I want to hear what you have to say. Write it in French if you have to.
I've written a very long comment which explained my opinion, but when I read it again, I've seen it wasn't easy to other people to understand it, because of my bad English. So... I delete it.
Sorry, I don't mean to be a dope about the settlers thing. The people who would eventually found America were Christians (mostly deists, however), but they were certainly not fleeing from people like me, which is what Hawkeye said. For example, in my last comment, I espoused the right of citizens to free speech, which is something that I'm fairly certain King George III would not agree with. I should also point out that the "founding fathers" of America established an explicitly secular form of government. Also, if I can't trust a dictionary for definitions, then where should I get them from? It seems pretty ridiculous to me to say that Christianity isn't a religion. But we shouldn't be arguing about that. I don't care what you think Christianity is as long as we're talking about the same thing. Anyways, for the purposes of this discussion, I will concede your point about the bible verses that I brought up (but what about the bible stating that hares chew their cud in LEV 11:6?). Even if the bible is internally consistent and does not contradict itself, that still doesn't count as evidence for the existence of God. In order to use what is written in the bible as evidence for God, you must first demonstrate the inerrancy of the bible.
@Nate Bush (again) I looked up the verses, and you are wrong. You said Exodus 15:3, which says the Lord is a warrior, contradicts Romans 15:33, which mentions that God is the God of peace. Wrong! Ecclesiastes 3:8b says there is a time for war and a time for peace. You also said Proverbs 4:7, which says wisdom comes with knowledge, contradicts Ecclesiastes 1:18, which says increasing knowledge increases pain. Wrong again. Context, context, context! Ecclesiastes specifically talks about life WITHOUT GOD GUIDING IT. Proverbs is guidance for those who let God lead their life. Lastly you said Psalm 2:12 contradicts Isaiah 1:7. Entirely wrong AGAIN. The verse from Isaiah tells the Righteous to watch out for evil. The verse from Psalms says the Righteous will flourish. If the Righteous watch out for evil they WILL flourish!
wow... first off, you are right in one thing, Jesus would hang with pagans. D'oh, a doctor heals THE SICK. Good job on being smart there. Secondly, @Nate Bush- obviously Hawkeye meant the first settlers from Europe. Also your comment about Christianity being a religion is also quite false. Just because a dictionary says its a religion, doesn't mean it is. Books can hold lies you know.
Okay, sorry that I had to be away from MOCpages for a while, so I couldnít respond to everything quickly. Togor the Dragon: All of the events in the bible actually donít fit together perfectly. Here are a few pairs of verses that directly contradict each other. Go ahead and look them up: EXO 15:3 & ROM 15:33, PRO 4:7 & ECC 1:18, PSA 92:12 & ISA 51:7. I could go on. Also, what exactly is it in the bible that scientists canít explain? Dr. Blok: Thereís a difference between insulting Christians and insulting Christianity. Thereís also a difference between insulting something and disagreeing with it. And Christianity actually is a religion: www.merriam-webster.com SLASH dictionary SLASH christianity. Sorry for the SLASH thing again. Just replace them with /s. I assume Merriam-Webster is a reliable source. Hawkeye: Iím going to try to pick your statement apart bit by bit, so please bear with me. First of all, the first settlers of America did not arrive here to escape from anyone, but instead probably arrived in Alaska over the Bering land bridge about 15,000 years ago because they were nomadic herders or something. Secondly, I never said anything like that. What is it that you think I believe? In fact, in an earlier comment, I specifically wrote that I think belief is a bad thing. Let me make this perfectly clear: I do not advocate anyone being looked down upon as lower class or exiled. What I do advocate is unrestricted free speech, so that everyoneís ideas (including religious ideas) can compete on their own merit. Right now, I am exercising this right by engaging in this debate. As for your other comment, itís not true that ďany "Christian" who strays or denies their beliefs obviously went through a "tough" time in their lifeĒ. Personally, I ďstrayedĒ from Christianity (and religion in general) not because of any hardships in my life, but because I gave it a lot of thought, and decided that religious claims do not correlate with reality, and if they do, it is pure chance. This decision was not very difficult for me.
What really makes me sad is people like Lt. Zepher, JD Luse, and LL who seem to have some sort of Christian belief don't defend it. It really pains me to see how they're afraid to stand up for what they believe in. I am not some sort of Christian/Mormon prototype, or a Progressive Catholic. I am a 100% Christian, sticking and believing in the Bible above all other sources of information, even Christian authors. *NOTE* Books like those many times do show us how to translate the Bible into our 21st Century lives.....also I do not believe the blindly, but believe it based on factual findings. I also find it sad that the ONLY people professing Christianity on this page are 10 year olds who Mr.Nate Bush can tear apart b/c of their lack of experience.
Nate: after carefully reading the example of Christian "hypocritical-ness" in that link of yours, here's why I disagree with you...Any "Christian" who strays or denies their beliefs obviously went through a "tough" time in their life, and since everything didn't go there way [which is not what a true Christian believes], it is an example of God testing this individual to see if his/her faith holds up, and is "true faith". If the person doesn't have the faith, than he/she was using Christianity as insurance, just in case Jesus really did die for his/her sins, that is not true belief, which is why he/she was not a realy Christian to begin with.
The first settlers of America came to escape from people like Nate Bush, who think if you don't believe what he believes, you should be looked on as "lower class" or maybe banned from this country. What Nate [and many more of you] might find interesting is that this nation [America] was founded by Christians to escape a government that had banned Christianity.
You know not all Christians are like that. I myself still enjoyed the MOC some expect the part dissing Christianity. I am only 12 and I am saved. By the way Mister Youngy you should tell me if Jesus and God don't exist how come all the events in the Bible fit together perfectly? And how come Scientist can't explain some things in the Bible? And I myself do get along and still can enjoy myself with none Christian friends and people on MOCpages. BTW Jesus still loves you.
I would like to start, by saying that as I read that, I was listening to Switchfoot (a christian rock band). I am LDS (also known as Mormon, but not technically). My dad, an Grandfathers were all missionary's (what you are bugging about). I also have many good friends who did the same, and they were some of the best years of their lives. I really do not agree with what you are saying. I do not see what is wrong with trying to preach the gospel. Though, I must say, that i have seen some adds by my church ob MOCpages. :P So, that is my 2 cents.
First, it's an awesome MOC. I would have been happy to contribute to the debat (religion is a theme in which I'm strongly interested) but as you may know my english is not very good, unfortunately.
So, I would say that I'm agree with most of the things that Mister Nate Bush has said.
Congratulation to have make a MOC on such an interesting theme, I like your point of view.
I was just lookin' around at your stuff and thought I'd write another review on this. Though I do not totally agree with you on some of these issues, I want you to know that I'm glad you incorporated some Lego in this. Most of the time when people share their feelings they just yell and don't even have anything in Lego. (NOT including Shannon Ocean) So yeah, those MOCs aren't bad.
Blade, if you're reading this, check out this article:
logicalfallacies.info SLASH notruescotsman.html
(you have to put a / where I wrote SLASH, because of the rule that says I can't write long words without spaces).
All right, another debate! First, let me just say that the views that I am expressing in this comment are always subject to change. Anyways, to put it bluntly, I think that religion is bad for humanity. Sure, people do good things in the name of religion, but itís not like they couldnít do them if they werenít religious. Plus, Iím pretty sure that the harmful effects of religion (including the inconvenience of having to deal with door-to-door proselytizers) outweigh the beneficial ones. However, the problem isnít just religion, but belief. When someone believes something, it implies that they will dogmatically continue to be convinced of it even in the face of contradictory evidence. Iím agreeing with Chris Phipson when he said ďideas can be changed but a belief is a little trickyĒ. That said, religions are mostly just collections of beliefs, so I think that we would be better off without any religion, organized or not (including Buddhism). Oh yeah, nice MOC, by the way! At first I didnít notice the toilet seat halo, but I think itís really creative.
About time you posted something, Shannon. God, I hate Christians (see what I did there?). In my opinion, the only thing worse than a Brit is a humorless Catholic. And the only thing worse than that is taxes. I'm an Athiest mostly, though I do have the money-making skills of a Jew.
I like it
June 26, 2008
I'd absolutely LOVE to go 'straight to Hell'. I am certain that is where the party is. This can only lead to a very interesting conversation. This brings to mind one of my very favorite sites (thebricktestament.com) which I am sure most of you have seen. Great building and great commentary. ...pretty good for an Aussie. <wink>
Wonderful work. Completely insulting to my religion of course, but good work none the least. I've got to agree, trying to convert someone is as bad as people making fun of a religion. Both say that it's stupid to believe what you believe. I say: Believe what you want, but don't insult what I think. Easy. Great work again!
Tough place to go, good job on the route. I don't see people knockin' on my door. Lucky I guess, or maybe it's because the drapes are all drawn and the tv's pretty loud. Maybe it's a regional thing, or city versus suburb. I'm not a church goin' guy but support the right to go. Wish more churches practiced what they preached but that's just people. They don't always do the right thing. Singlely or in a gang. Still, it's good to get that frustration off your chest once in a while. Smackin' 'em just leads to trouble. Better to make social comments in art form. And that way the real horrible people probably won't see it and come beat you up. People are so much trouble aren't they? I just love 'em, but not a knockin' at my door. I'd rather watch them on tv. garth
Phew, someone else did the religion thing! Quality building here and a thoughful presentation of your contention. Can't help but feel a little let down that there's no WWJDFF scene. Otherwise a excellent job and great comments below too. Ah, religion, how can so much good and simultaneously so much evil have been done in your name???
I'm gonna paraphrase a movie that put it all in perspective for me. "Religion got all screwed up when people took a good idea and built a belief system on it. Ideas can be changed but a belief is a little tricky". So, to the masses, believe what you will, it's none of my business. I like to think of the concept of religion as a mountain. Everyone may not be climbing up the same side, but we're all trying to get to the top. Well played Shannon. Now, what you need to do next time one of these guys knocks on your door. Follow them home, wait till about 4AM (that's about when they get up anyway), knock on their door and start preaching about the one true path... LEGO. ~ Chris.
I feel your pain. I remember distinctly that I was awaken three Saturdays in a row by actually the same religion peddler. Some people are so mindless that they don't remember what they did last week. Minus one star for saying that it is only christianity. In fact, I go around on saturdays telling all of my neighbors to buy LEGO and MOC or else they'll be bored to death. The Lego God will slay them. If you look around a lot of the places in the world, religion is enforced one way or the other so you don't need the pyramid scheme (i.e. persecution or law) I would rather quietly tolerate a few jack___es intruding on my zzz's, thanks.
My hat's off to ya Shan! To boldy go where no MOCer's gone before, and just jump right into the fray. If I can ever get my butt back to Seattle, I'm buying you a beer and insisting on an evening's conversation! Meanwhile, you said it as well as anyone could've here. Love the conference room, BTW. Do you suppose that's holy water there in the conference room cooler?
A hearty "Amen" to the whole thing. Damn fine work. P.S. if someone comes to your door asking, "Have you found Jesus?", just come to the door naked and say, "No, wanna help me look for him?" Works every time.
Hallelujah! Or uh wait, that word has a religious affiliation, scrap that. Personally, I'm a athiest, but I have no problems with those who belive otherwise. However, in my opinion, Christians do try to pawn their religion off more than any other religion, but it could be because the majority people around here are Christians. But the thing I dislike the most,is how seperation of church and state has disappeared, I mean, they added "under god" into the pledge and "in god we trust" to our currency. They want prayer in school and laws that reflect their beliefs instead of the best interests of the nation. Don't get me started... Nice pyramid scheme build and excellent topic!
You know Young, religion has drifted so far away from it's original purpose in some cases that's it's not even funny.So many people have "missed the point",but you don't want to sit here and hear me rant.So,I'll just comment on how "out of scale" Lego books are,like on your walls #2.I might come back later once I've thought a little.Good day Young~Roberta